[B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Nov 6 06:27:25 EST 2005


It might help to have the full phrasing of these texts in Rev 13:8  
and 17:8

13:8 KAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN AUTON PANTES hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, 	 
hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU  
TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
17:8 ... hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, hWN OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI  
TO BILBLION THS ZWHS APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU

Let's leave aside, please, any consideration of doctrinal  
implications of this passage and ask ourselves ONLY what the Greek  
text as a Greek text can or must mean. I would agree with the note in  
the NET:

"tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is  
traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding  
phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B.  
Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase  
“since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as  
translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8  
where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of  
the world” occurs with no ambiguity."

So: Yes, we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in 13:8 as construing with OU  
GEGRAPTAI rather than with ESFAGMENOU. I don't think that the  
understanding of APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU is affected by the function of  
that phrase in the other two passages you've mentioned in Luke and  
Hebrews: "since the foundation of the world" is quite appropriate.

HOWEVER, you have to realize that OU GEGRAPTAi  does not at all refer  
to a continuous process of writing but to a status: these names do  
NOT  "stand written" in the book of life: the writing was  
accomplished, completed at the foundation of the world.

On Nov 5, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Albert & Julia Haig wrote:

> I have a question re the phrase APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
> in Rev 13:8 and 17:8. Let's assume, at least for the
> sake of the argument, that in 13:8 this is connected
> with the writing of names (as in the NRSV & NASB)
> rather than the slaying of the Lamb (as in the NIV &
> KJV); if so, then in both cases we have reference to
> names written "from the foundation of the world".
>
> What I want to ask is whether this could be translated
> as "since the foundation of the world", in the sense
> of writing activity that has been ongoing since the
> creation, rather than names that were all written at
> or before the creation of the world. On at least two
> occasions, the phrase APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU clearly
> seems to have that meaning:
>
> Luke 11:50-51: so that this generation may be charged
> with the blood of all the prophets shed since the
> foundation of the world (APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU), from
> the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who
> perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I
> tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
>
> This does not mean that the prophets were already
> slain when the world was created, but only that they
> have been slain since the world was created. It does
> not seem to have any predestinarian aspect; it is not
> saying that these prophets were somehow destined to be
> slain from creation (though that may or may not be
> true as a theological matter). Another example:
>
> Heb 9:26: for then he would have had to suffer again
> and again since the foundation of the world (APO
> KATABOLHS KOSMOU). But as it is, he has appeared once
> for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the
> sacrifice of himself.
>
> Again, this hypothetical suffering that Jesus would
> have had to endure, unambiguously means suffering in
> an ongoing fashion since the creation of the world,
> not suffering that was all realized at the foundation
> of the world, or somehow predestined then.
>
> So returning to Rev 13:8 & 17:8, could we understand
> this to mean the people whose names had not been
> written since the foundation of the world i.e. whose
> names had not be written up to that time, are referred
> to? If so, this entirely removes the predestinarian
> aspect of these texts; they would not be saying that
> there has existed from the time of the creation some
> fixed book of names of who was to be saved and who is
> not. Rather, they would just be saying that there is a
> book to which names have been added on an ongoing
> fashion since the creation of the world, presumably as
> these people believed. The implied message to the
> reader would be: "you had better get your name added
> to the book of life before the time of judgement".
>
> Dr Albert Haig.
>
>
>
> 		
> ____________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Find a local business fast with Yahoo! Local Search
> http://au.local.yahoo.com
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




More information about the B-Greek mailing list