[B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Nov 6 08:06:36 EST 2005


> From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at ioa.com>
> Date: November 6, 2005 6:27:25 AM EST
> To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8
>
> It might help to have the full phrasing of these texts in Rev 13:8
> and 17:8
>
> 13:8 KAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN AUTON PANTES hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, 	
> hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU
> TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
> 17:8 ... hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, hWN OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI
> TO BILBLION THS ZWHS APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
>
> Let's leave aside, please, any consideration of doctrinal
> implications of this passage and ask ourselves ONLY what the Greek
> text as a Greek text can or must mean. I would agree with the note in
> the NET:
>
> "tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is
> traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding
> phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B.
> Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase
> “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as
> translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8
> where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of
> the world” occurs with no ambiguity."
>
> So: Yes, we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in 13:8 as construing with OU
> GEGRAPTAI rather than with ESFAGMENOU. I don't think that the
> understanding of APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU is affected by the function of
> that phrase in the other two passages you've mentioned in Luke and
> Hebrews: "since the foundation of the world" is quite appropriate.
>
> HOWEVER, you have to realize that OU GEGRAPTAi  does not at all refer
> to a continuous process of writing but to a status: these names do
> NOT  "stand written" in the book of life: the writing was
> accomplished, completed at the foundation of the world.

Seems to me that I should perhaps clarify by Englishing. There is a  
perspective on intervening time SINCE the foundation of the world
in these formulations in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, but it is NOT on any  
writing being done during the interim: rather, it is upon the ABSENCE
of any writing being done during the interim. I'd English the phrase   
in question as:

" ... whose names have stood NOT WRITTEN since the foundation of the  
world."

or

" ... whose names have stood unwritten since the foundation of the  
world ..."

That is to say: the perfect tense here points to a PRESENT status --  
to what is CURRENTLY the state of things; what the adverbial phrase
APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU adds to that is that this present status HAS  
BEEN the status of things ever since the foundation of the world.

>
> On Nov 5, 2005, at 9:04 PM, Albert & Julia Haig wrote:
>
>> I have a question re the phrase APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
>> in Rev 13:8 and 17:8. Let's assume, at least for the
>> sake of the argument, that in 13:8 this is connected
>> with the writing of names (as in the NRSV & NASB)
>> rather than the slaying of the Lamb (as in the NIV &
>> KJV); if so, then in both cases we have reference to
>> names written "from the foundation of the world".
>>
>> What I want to ask is whether this could be translated
>> as "since the foundation of the world", in the sense
>> of writing activity that has been ongoing since the
>> creation, rather than names that were all written at
>> or before the creation of the world. On at least two
>> occasions, the phrase APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU clearly
>> seems to have that meaning:
>>
>> Luke 11:50-51: so that this generation may be charged
>> with the blood of all the prophets shed since the
>> foundation of the world (APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU), from
>> the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who
>> perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I
>> tell you, it will be charged against this generation.
>>
>> This does not mean that the prophets were already
>> slain when the world was created, but only that they
>> have been slain since the world was created. It does
>> not seem to have any predestinarian aspect; it is not
>> saying that these prophets were somehow destined to be
>> slain from creation (though that may or may not be
>> true as a theological matter). Another example:
>>
>> Heb 9:26: for then he would have had to suffer again
>> and again since the foundation of the world (APO
>> KATABOLHS KOSMOU). But as it is, he has appeared once
>> for all at the end of the age to remove sin by the
>> sacrifice of himself.
>>
>> Again, this hypothetical suffering that Jesus would
>> have had to endure, unambiguously means suffering in
>> an ongoing fashion since the creation of the world,
>> not suffering that was all realized at the foundation
>> of the world, or somehow predestined then.
>>
>> So returning to Rev 13:8 & 17:8, could we understand
>> this to mean the people whose names had not been
>> written since the foundation of the world i.e. whose
>> names had not be written up to that time, are referred
>> to? If so, this entirely removes the predestinarian
>> aspect of these texts; they would not be saying that
>> there has existed from the time of the creation some
>> fixed book of names of who was to be saved and who is
>> not. Rather, they would just be saying that there is a
>> book to which names have been added on an ongoing
>> fashion since the creation of the world, presumably as
>> these people believed. The implied message to the
>> reader would be: "you had better get your name added
>> to the book of life before the time of judgement".
>>
>> Dr Albert Haig.
>>
>>
>>
>> 		
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>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
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> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




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