[B-Greek] Singular Rel-pro in Rev 13:8; the plural Rel-pro in Rev 17:8

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Mon Nov 7 01:28:59 EST 2005


Carl,

I've read how the singular relative pronoun may sometimes have a plural antecedent; it seems though, that it's quite a stretch for "all" the people living on the earth to be reduced to or represented by a singular "hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU"; I don't understand. Why the change to the plural hWN in Rev 17:8

Another thing that puzzles:

In Rev 13:8 John writes the dative prepositional phrase EN TWi BIBLIWi to describe (I presume) the place in which TO ONOMA AUTOU did not become written; then in Rev 17:8 John writes the accusative prepositional phrase EPI TO BIBLION; again, I don't understand.

Also, couldn’t TO BIBLION THS ZWHS and TOU ESQAGMENOU in a mystical (read reality) kind of way have existed APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. That is to say, couldn't we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU as modifying both the book's existence found in 17:8, and the one who has become as slain in 13:8 ? 




Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah


----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carl W. Conrad<mailto:cwconrad at ioa.com> 
  To: B-Greek B-Greek<mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org> 
  Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:27 AM
  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8


  It might help to have the full phrasing of these texts in Rev 13:8  
  and 17:8

  13:8 KAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN AUTON PANTES hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, 
  hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU  
  TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
  17:8 ... hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, hWN OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI  
  TO BILBLION THS ZWHS APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU

  Let's leave aside, please, any consideration of doctrinal  
  implications of this passage and ask ourselves ONLY what the Greek  
  text as a Greek text can or must mean. I would agree with the note in  
  the NET:

  "tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is  
  traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding  
  phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B.  
  Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase  
  “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as  
  translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8  
  where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of  
  the world” occurs with no ambiguity."

  So: Yes, we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in 13:8 as construing with OU  
  GEGRAPTAI rather than with ESFAGMENOU. I don't think that the  
  understanding of APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU is affected by the function of  
  that phrase in the other two passages you've mentioned in Luke and  
  Hebrews: "since the foundation of the world" is quite appropriate.

  HOWEVER, you have to realize that OU GEGRAPTAi  does not at all refer  
  to a continuous process of writing but to a status: these names do  
  NOT  "stand written" in the book of life: the writing was  
  accomplished, completed at the foundation of the world.




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