[B-Greek] Singular Rel-pro in Rev 13:8; the plural Rel-pro in Rev 17:8
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Mon Nov 7 05:52:35 EST 2005
On Nov 7, 2005, at 1:28 AM, virgil newkirk wrote:
> Carl,
>
> I've read how the singular relative pronoun may sometimes have a
> plural antecedent; it seems though, that it's quite a stretch for
> "all" the people living on the earth to be reduced to or
> represented by a singular "hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU"; I
> don't understand. Why the change to the plural hWN in Rev 17:8
I would not assume that the phrasing of Rev 17:8 is derived from that
of 13:8. What might be noted in the clause "hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA
AUTOU" is the Semitizing construction wherein hOU is repeated in
AUTOU as is common with ASHER clauses in Hebrew. Although BDAG lists
a number of anomalous varieties of pronominal non-agreement with
antecedent, this doesn't really seem to fall into it. I'd be more
inclined to think this is one of those not-at-all-uncommon
"solecisms" of Revelation.
> Another thing that puzzles:
>
> In Rev 13:8 John writes the dative prepositional phrase EN TWi
> BIBLIWi to describe (I presume) the place in which TO ONOMA AUTOU
> did not become written; then in Rev 17:8 John writes the accusative
> prepositional phrase EPI TO BIBLION; again, I don't understand.
While others might understand it differently, I'd say simply that EPI
TO BIBLION is a solecism (from the perspective of school grammar) --
it's just bad Greek. On the other hand, as I keep noting, Koine Greek
is a language in flux: one of the currents in its movement away from
classical toward modern usage is increasing usage of the accusative
forms of nouns as objects of all prepositions. And -- as I said
above, I wouldn't necessarily assume that the phraseology of 17:8
depends directly upon the phrasing of 13:8.
> Also, couldn’t TO BIBLION THS ZWHS and TOU ESQAGMENOU in a mystical
> (read reality) kind of way have existed APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. That
> is to say, couldn't we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU as modifying both
> the book's existence found in 17:8, and the one who has become as
> slain in 13:8 ?
This gets into speculation that goes beyond what the Greek text as a
Greek text says; I'd prefer not to talk about "mystical reality."
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Carl W. Conrad<mailto:cwconrad at ioa.com>
> To: B-Greek B-Greek<mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2005 4:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8
>
>
> It might help to have the full phrasing of these texts in Rev 13:8
> and 17:8
>
> 13:8 KAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN AUTON PANTES hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS,
> hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU
> TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
> 17:8 ... hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, hWN OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI
> TO BILBLION THS ZWHS APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
>
> Let's leave aside, please, any consideration of doctrinal
> implications of this passage and ask ourselves ONLY what the Greek
> text as a Greek text can or must mean. I would agree with the
> note in
> the NET:
>
> "tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is
> traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding
> phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B.
> Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the
> phrase
> “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as
> translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8
> where the phrase “written in the book of life since the
> foundation of
> the world” occurs with no ambiguity."
>
> So: Yes, we take APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in 13:8 as construing with OU
> GEGRAPTAI rather than with ESFAGMENOU. I don't think that the
> understanding of APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU is affected by the function of
> that phrase in the other two passages you've mentioned in Luke and
> Hebrews: "since the foundation of the world" is quite appropriate.
>
> HOWEVER, you have to realize that OU GEGRAPTAi does not at all
> refer
> to a continuous process of writing but to a status: these names do
> NOT "stand written" in the book of life: the writing was
> accomplished, completed at the foundation of the world.
>
> ---
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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