[B-Greek] More on APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8
Albert & Julia Haig
albert_and_julia at yahoo.com.au
Mon Nov 7 03:49:29 EST 2005
> Let's leave aside, please, any consideration of
doctrinal implications of this passage and ask
ourselves ONLY what the Greek text as a Greek text
can or must mean.
I agree with this; I'm not asking whether the text
*ought* to be interpreted as I suggested, only whether
it *can* be interpreted as suggested, on purely
grammatical grounds.
> HOWEVER, you have to realize that OU GEGRAPTAi does
not at all refer to a continuous process of writing
but to a status: these names do NOT "stand written"
in the book of life: the writing was accomplished,
completed at the foundation of the world.
Yes and no. I agree that OU GEGRAPTAi refers to a
present status from the point of view of the deictic
centre. But I don't see how you can claim that the
writing must have been all accomplished at the
foundation of the world. In Luke 11:50, the action
that has been going on since the foundation of the
world is EKKECUMENON, which is a perfect passive
participle, also indicating a status (the blood has
been shed; it stands shed), action completed from the
perspective of the statement, the deictic centre.
GEGRAPTAi is perfect passive indicative, so I don't
see why it couldn't be treated the same, as action
completed prior to the deictic centre, which in the
case of Rev 13:8 and 17:8 seems to be the eschaton.
I'm not disputing that OU GEGRAPTAi could mean what
you claim that it means; I'm just saying that I'm not
convinced that it has to mean that.
So to rephrase the question: does the phrase OU
GEGRAPTAi have a special technical meaning that
restricts its meaning in a way that the perfect
passive generally (such as EKKECUMENON) isn't
restricted when connected to APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU?
> Not sure why you have a concern with WHEN the names
were written.
I'm merely concerned, at the moment, with trying to
understand the grammatical meaning of the statements;
or to see if the suggestion above is grammatically
viable. Obviously, there might be theological concerns
at the back of this, but this isn't the place to
discuss them.
> Here is a useful parallel text, note that GEGRAPTAI
is used here as a technical term with the meaning that
Dr. Conrad has clearly explained. Note also the
relationship between APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU and
PROEQEASATO.
As you've quoted it, the text reads PRO KATABOLHS
KOSMOU, not APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. That seems to me to
be a significant difference. I wouldn't claim that PRO
KATABOLHS KOSMOU could have the meaning "since the
foundation of the world".
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