[B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, etc.
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Tue Nov 8 16:14:47 EST 2005
On Nov 8, 2005, at 2:19 PM, Richard W. Wilson wrote:
> George,
> I don't see in your comments on Rev 5.1 or in the texts themselves
> any reference to the question of WHEN such scrolls or books of life
> are actually written, but merely an assertion that '"it stands
> written" prior to the foundation of the world.' Theology is
> apparently trumping exegesis. That they are sealed doesn't say when
> they were sealed.
I would agree with this -- there's an assumption that they've been
sealed since creation. That assumption may be valid, but I don't
think it is clearly indicated in these verses.
> Similarly, I think, even Carl Conrad has stated his opinion without
> serious engagement with, or more than a nod toward, the existence
> of alternative interpretations of WHEN something is GEGRAPTAi.
> Carl, I greatly appreciate the extent of your knowledge of B-Greek
> and the precision and clarity of the perspectives you normally put
> forth, but in this case I think your own beliefs may have gotten in
> the way of a more objective discussion.
I quite assure you that my beliefs are not playing a role in what
I've argued: I think the text ought to be understood in terms of its
own indications whether or not it happens to agree with what one
might believe. If one intends to conform one's belief to the text in
fact, I think one ought to ascertain what the text says before
determining what one believes.
In this instance I continue to think that if we take APO KATABOLHS
KOSMOU with GEGRAPTAI in Rev 13:8, the sense must be "the names stand
unwritten ever since the foundation of the world." That is, what was
true at the outset is still true.
Now, perhaps I'll go one step further: I think this formulation
negates any suggestion that the names have ever been entered into the
book in the intervening time. It does NOT indicate that they MIGHT
HAVE BEEN ENTERED BUT WEREN'T, and some might think that's an
inference to be taken seriously: but I don't think there's a great
deal of warrant for drawing any inference at all from a NEGATIVE
ASSERTION.
> I realize that I am not adding anything to the straightforward
> interpretation of the actual texts involved here, but I am far from
> competant to do so. I am mostly just wanting others to continue,
> deepen, and perhaps also broaden this disccusion of these and other
> relevant "predesinarian" type texts.
Please let's not get involved in dealing with more than one text at a
time; our business here is NOT to establish doctrine but to elucidate
the Greek text as Greek text.
> COPY:
> Message: 20
> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 13:01:35 GMT
> From: "gfsomsel at juno.com" <gfsomsel at juno.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8
> To: albert_and_julia at yahoo.com.au
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> _____________
> No writing can be read as simply a concatenation of disparate parts
> randomly thrown together. This passage, like passages in any
> document must be read in conjunction with that which is set forth
> in the rest of the document. In line with this, I refer you to Re
> 5.1 where the one seated upon the throne is described
> KAI EIDON EPI THN DECIAN TOU KAQHMENOU EPI TOU QRONOU BIBLION
> GEGRAMMENON ESWQEN KAI OPISQEN KATGESFRAGISMENON SFRAGISIN hEPTA
> This is the Book of Destiny which is subsequently opened by the
> Lamb beginning in chapter 6. Upon opening each seal that which is
> set forth in that section transpires.
> 1. KAI EIDON hOTE HNOICEN TO ARNION MIAN EK TWN hEPTA SFRAGIDWN,
> KAI HKOUSA EK TWN TESSARWN ZWiWN LEGONTOS hWS FWNH BRONTHS, ERXOU.
> 2. KAI EIDON, KAI IDOU hIPPOS LEUKOS, KAI hO KAQHMENOS EP' AUTON
> EXWN TOCON KAI EDOQH AUTWi STEFANOS KAI ECHLQEN NIKWN KAI hINA NIKHSHi
> etc.
> In light of that which has been set forth previous to 13.8, it can
> hardly be denied that the author's conception is that "it stands
> written" prior to the foundation of the world.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> __________
>
>
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at ioa.com or cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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