[B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, etc.

virgil newkirk virgilsalvage1 at msn.com
Wed Nov 9 05:42:21 EST 2005


Elizabeth,

 In Revelation we are dealing with the ideological framework of the APOKALUYIS IHSOU XRISTOU which apocalyptic has among its characteristics to which we should not separate ourselves:

* To show to His servants the things which must "shortly take place."
* Blessings to the ones who "reads" and "hears" the words and who "heeds" the things in it because the time is near. The possibility of "heeding" is clearly presented !

This, I would suggest, is the present ideological framework that we must stay within, all the while, of course, never abandoning the whole of all the writings. (James 4:5)

You would assign (it would seem to me) this GEGRAPTAI to some "larger" framework of Jewish and Christian apocalyptic. John, however in 13:8 eventually assigns it to something actually very small....he assigns it to a "hOU."(Rev 13:8b) I was really helped by Rolf's comment. I was helped to see that those "all" people are really made up of a whole lot of "hOUs" if you will. If you have 10,000,000 serving the beast they all got there 1 x 1 x1 x hOU x hOU, and it would seem to me that according to what John writes, that the reason they are to be found serving the beast is because their experience up to the point of John's observing them there in that vision is best described by the perfect  OU GEGRAPTAI describing a "present" condition; that of not having had their names written in that scroll of what is characterized by Life. (TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS) They, at that present time are not involved in any way, not connected to, can't have anything written concerning them as relates to THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU
TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. Their name (read "them..themselves") is not in the record..not in the story of THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU
TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. Is it any wonder John sees them only as ones serving...worshipping this beast.  And again, the framework mentioned above, is, after all, concerning people...their seeing, reading, hearing, and heeding. That's experiental stuff I would say. 

Rev 13:8 KAI PROSKUNHSOUSIN AUTON PANTES hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS,
hOU OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA AUTOU EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU
TOU ESFAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU
17:8 ... hOI KATOIKOUNTES EPI THS GHS, hWN OU GEGRAPTAI TO ONOMA EPI
TO BILBLION THS ZWHS APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU

Ken mentioned, "Isn't this about what APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU modifies ?" 

I would say...only partly;
 ........however, everything in it's proper order. 

All these (hOUs) are separate from the scroll...the record...the experience. So at this point in 13:8c, the writer utilizes a concatenation of genitives that we can expect to build on one another to make clear what the real characteristics of this very real record are. The genitive case as A.T.Robertson states:

"Is at bottom simple; the genitive case shows DIAIRESIN" ...distinction.

We then are instructed concerning the distinctions or characteristics of this scroll...this record. It is the recording of the experience of THS ZWHS..which is characterized by TOU ARNIOU (no TOU ARNIOU..no THS ZWHS) Then in this concatenation we read TOU ESQAGMENOU ..not an aorist indicative passive verb saying simply that this Lamb was killed;  but a genitive-perfect-passive-participle describing this Lamb as having a certain "characteristic" that characteristic, that distinction being, "as having been slain" and then a final distinction given to this slaying...APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU. From the very moment of the founding of this world and what that would eventually mean there had to be a certain "slaying" that occurred to hO CHRISTOS...a slaying so real that The Eternal could and would interact with the temporal that had been created. Oh! What a slaying occurred. Oh! What a slaying must that have been that the Rock that followed Israel in the wilderness, that Rock being hO CHRISTOS (1 Cor 10:4) was willing and able to be struck. Surely this is just one of many instances that we can refer to where we can clearly see that what John wrote in Rev 13:8 clearly describes the Lamb as having the characteristic of having been slain and that this action of slaying produced the resultant state that hO CHRISTOS is as one slain APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU, and that subsequent to that we see Him in many situations as someone slain, but it is a life-giving slaying. It can issue in someone's name GEGRATAI EN TWi BIBLIWi THS ZWHS TOU ARNIOU TOU ESQAGMENOU APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU...it would seem to me.






Virgil Newkirk
Salt Lake City, Utah



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Elizabeth Kline<mailto:kline-dekooning at earthlink.net> 
  To: greek<mailto:b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org> 
  Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [B-Greek] APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU in Rev 13:8 and 17:8, etc.



  On Nov 8, 2005, at 12:04 PM, Ken Penner wrote:

  > I haven't been following the thread terribly closely, but it seems  
  > to me a
  > lot of red herrings are being chased.
  > Maybe this has been pointed out and I missed it, but isn't the  
  > question
  > ultimately about what APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU modifies?
  >

  No, in fact, that question is a red herring. The big problem with  
  this discussion is that some the participants want to divorce the  
  meaning of GEGRAPTAI in Rev 17:8 from the ideological framework of  
  apocalyptic. Exegesis in a vacuum. The idea that the course of  
  history was "written down" in advance is central to Jewish and  
  Christian apocalyptic. I haven't been able to find a single scholarly  
  work on Revelation which even suggests the possibility of this other  
  interpretation. Why not? Because it ignores the central idea of  
  apocalyptic which is the unveiling of divine plan which was  
  established APO KATABOLHS KOSMOU.

  Dr. Conrad had it right to begin with. The thread could have ended  
  there.


  Elizabeth Kline




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