[B-Greek] Matt 24:5 Direct or Indirect Discourse
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Oct 23 06:51:18 EDT 2005
Dave, we appreciate your message, but I don't think it solves the
problem raised in the original query. The fact is that in Greek a
hOTI before a direct citation may function exactly as do quotation
marks in English, but on other occasions it introduces, like English
"that," an indirect citation. If the hOTI is present before cited
material, the reader must make a judgment about whether the citation
is direct or indirect. In older Greek the intercalation of a form of
FHMI between parts of the citation functions to indicate a direct
citation -- but in the Koine it is no longer intercalated but rather
precedes the citation. I think that the clincher for the conventional
interpretation of the discourse in Matt 24:5 is that LEGW is
consistently used in Matthew to introduce a direct citation. There
really is no ambiguity in this passage at all.
On Oct 22, 2005, at 7:14 PM, Daveat168 at aol.com wrote:
> <<Glenden Riddle <glendenpriddle at yahoo.com>
> Fri Oct 21 17:16:57 EDT 2005
>
> "Can anyone see any way possible that those saying, EGW EIMI hO
> CRISTOS,
> in Matt 24:5 could be teachers saying that Jesus is the Messiah, and
> they do
> believe that, but they lead people away from the truth of God's Word
> due to
> self-deception or ignorance.
> "It seems to me that to take the verse this way would require taking
> the Greek
> following the participle LEGONTES as indirect discourse. It would
> also require
> taking the verb PLANAW as unintentionally leading someone down the
> wrong
> path rather than a conscious attempt to lead them from truth."
>
> Text: POLLOI GAR ELEUSONTAI EPI TWi ONOMATI MOU LEGONTES:
> EGW EIMI hO CRISTOS, KAI POLLOUS PLANHSOUSIN.
>
> I am baffled by the suggested interpretation. It seems to me that the
> suggested
> intention would require -- at least normally -- something like
> LEGONTES ME
> EINAI TON CRISTON, or something similar. As for the suggestion that
> these
> POLLOI are sincere believers who somehow mislead many others, while I
> can imagine such a scenario (there are all too many sincere people
> who are
> wrong-headed and mislead others!), I can't see it as indicated
> here: the
> phrasing of the saying as a whole does not point to those who come
> asserting anything other than that each such comer is himself the
> Christ. In
> sum I do think that EGW EIMI hO CRISTOS is a direct citation.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
> ---
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>
> Dear Friends,
> Can I give you an example of a similar construction in English:
> 1/ For many will come, saying, "I am Christ", and they will lead
> many astray.
> 2/ For many will come, saying, I am Christ, and they will lead many
> astray.
> The only difference is the presence, or lack of punctuation,
> punctuation, which is naturally missing in both Greek and Classical
> Latin.
> The unambiguous version of case #2 incorporates 'that' before
> 'I am Christ', but English Grammar does not actually require it.
> For the discourse to be indirect explicitly, I would expect
> 'hOTI', for Greek, or 'quia' for Latin to be placed where 'that'
> for English would be found. You are still left with the ambiguity
> in Greek or Latin, as to whether the reported words are in reported
> format, or verbatim format.
> I would humbley suggest, that in the absence of 'hOTI', or
> 'quia', that the discourse be assumed to be direct, ie case #1.
>
>
> --
> Best regards,
> Dave Smith.
> (B.A.2,1, Science & Technology, Open Univerity.)
> 168 Bristol Road,
> Frampton Cotterell,
> Bristol, BS36 2AX,
> U.K.
> eMail <DaveAt168 at aol.com>
> WWW: <http://www.sangallen56.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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