[B-Greek] Heb 11:40 together or not apart?
Harold Holmyard
hholmyard at ont.com
Tue Aug 15 22:09:22 EDT 2006
Dear Craig,
>Heb 11:40 TOU QEOU PERI hHMWN KREITTON TI PROBLEYAMENOU hINA MH CWRIS hHMWN
>TELEIWQWSIN
>
>I noticed the other day that the NIV and NET Bible translate differently to
>what I'm used to, concerning the words MH CWRIS hHMWN. I'm used to 'not
>apart from us', but NIV and NET have 'together with us'. NET has this note:
>"The Greek phrasing emphasizes this point by negating the opposite: 'so that
>they would not be made perfect without us'"
>
>Is it a fair comment that the negation emphasies the opposite, and is best
>translated 'together' instead of 'not apart'?
>
>
Hh: Your remarks are confusing to me. The NIV simply puts the statement
in a positive form rather than leaving the two negative words: "not
without." Double negatives are often a bit hard to process mentally, so
NIV put the verse in the positive:
Heb. 11:40 God had planned something better for us so that only together
with us would they be made perfect.
>Just reading it as a _logical_ negation made it more ambiguous to me: it
>didn't have to mean 'together' just that those previously hadn't already
>been made perfect before those contemporaries of the writer.
>
>In English, 'together' is a little more clearer than 'not apart'. I'm just
>wondering if that is the same in Greek? Is the NIV and NET making an
>interpretation here or not?
>
>(To help understand what I'm asking, let me give a little more background on
>how it might make a difference. If it is 'together' it implies a
>simultaneous enjoying of something with the OT saints, either in the present
>or the future. If it is 'not apart' it might allow an understanding that NT
>saints enjoy something better/KREITTON in their lives that the OT saints did
>not enjoy in their lives.)
>
>
HH: This is also somewhat confusing to me. It the OT saints are not made
perfect without us, then logically they are made perfect with us. The
Greek statement implies that the OT saints are going to be perfected but
in such a way that it is not without us. We are perfected at the same
time they are.
Yours,
Harold Holmyard
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