[B-Greek] Titus 2:13 / Revelation 12:14

William Ross woundedegomusic at gmail.com
Fri Aug 25 16:02:47 EDT 2006


Thank you George, for that pertinent inquiry.

As I understand Wallace, the "key to identification" of an adjectival noun
in the genitive is the distinct absence of another option. See Wallace pages
81 and 82 "Key to identification." He gives preference to the thought of
"posession" over "description." For "description" he says "...if none of the
other categories fit" while if "belonging to" works, then that would be the
likely usage.

Please let me know if I am misreading Wallace on this matter, or if, after
reading this, you still disagree on other more compelling grounds.

Thanks,

William Ross
VGB, Argentina

PS: I apologize to all for the use of a font - producing gobbledy-gook.




On 8/25/06, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>  Obviously, I'm not Harold, but I will say that simply because something
> is possible does not mean that it is preferable (assuming it is possible,
> but I don't recall what the discussion was).  What is preferable is what
> conforms to the common usage or to the usage of the author.
>
> __________
>
>
> *William Ross <woundedegomusic at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
> Thank you Harold.
>
> Might not the following actually refer to posession?
>
> TO SWMA THS hARMATIAS
>
> "the body belonging to sin"?
>
> Regardless, though, of the ability of the genitive to be adjectival, the
> most compelling factors seem to be:
>
> * the fact that "appearance of the glory" is available - which
> contra-indicates resorting to the adjectival reading
> * the context in which two appearances are contrasted:
>
>
> 11 [->]epefanh[<-] gar h cariv tou yeou swthriov pasin anyrwpoiv
>
> 12 paideuousa hmav ina arnhsamenoi thn asebeian kai tav kosmikav epiyumiav
> swfronwv kai dikaiwv kai eusebwv zhswmen en tw nun aiwni
>
> 13 prosdecomenoi thn makarian elpida kai [->]epifaneian[<-] thv doxhv tou
> megalou yeou kai swthrov hmwn cristou ihsou
>
> Ie: The context places us between two appearances - one past, one future.
>
> Would you agree, at least, that this reading is grammatically possible,
> and
> hence preferable to the adjectival? And if not, then what in the context
> or
> grammar is compelling toward and adjectival function for the genitive
> noun?
>
> Thanks so much for your response.
>
> William Ross
> VGB, Argentina
>
>
>
> On 8/25/06, Harold Holmyard wrote:
> >
> > Dear William,
> >
> > >This question was not addressed. I also would like to know how
> > thisconclusion was reached as it does not at all appear correct to me.
> > >
> >
> > HH: If you mean Jason's question about the adjectival use of the
> > genitive being a Semiticism, Dan Wallace's _Greek Grammar beyond the
> > Basics_ suggests that it is not a Semiticism. He says that the force of
> > the genitive is generally adjectival (p. 76). He defines it as the case
> > of qualification and occasionally separation. As qualification, it
> > defines, describes, qualifies, restricts, and limits. It is similar to
> > the adjective but more emphatic. He has a category called the
> > adjectival genitive and says that it really touches at the heart of the
> > genitive. There is an attributive genitive, which allows a translation
> > for EPIFANEIAN THS DOXHS like "glorious appearing." Wallace gives the
> > example of "body of sin," TO SWMA THS hARMATIAS (Rom 6:6), which can be
> > understood as "sinful body."
> >
> > > I wouldthink that Paul is referring to "the appearance of the glory"
> for
> > severalreasons:
> > >* Paul uses the adjectival form many times, so he is not thinking
> > Hebrewabout the correct way to be adjectival* in other places, Paul uses
> the
> > noun form exclusively as a noun, as far asI can see.* Paul's greek is
> > perfect as he was a highly literate, natural born greekspeaker and only
> > employs "semitisms" when he is quoting the LXX (which arethen
> technically
> > "septuagintisms" I should think)* the context is his contrasting the
> > appearance of [the time of] "god'sfavor" in the preceding verse with the
> > appearance of "glory"
> > >Am I mistaken on any of these points?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >Also, if "the Great God" is conceived of as a title that would only
> apply
> > tothe one true god, would this then indicate that Sharp's Rule does not
> > apply?
> > >
> >
> > HH: No, Sharp's Rule does apply. See Wallace at pages 270-290, where
> > there is a discussion of this passage in particular. There is no proper
> > name disqualification of the rule here in the Tit 2:13 phrase. A word
> > like QEOS is different than a proper name because it can be pluralized
> > (QEOI), but proper names cannot.
> >
> > >In effect, doesn't the appearance of the definite article "clash"
> > withhHMWN?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > HH: You cannot always do one-for-one literal translating and then judge
> > by the English, for Greek grammar works differently than English
> grammar.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Harold Holmyard
> >
> > >On 8/15/06, Jason Hare wrote:>> Carl,>> This is a bit
>
> > off-topic of the present discussion (attributive v.> predicate> position
> and
> > article-noun linkage), but I was just wondering -- since you> mentioned
> that
> > THS DOXHS ôçò äïîçò is functioning adjectivally in Titus> 2:13> -- if
> this
>
> > is a semiticism.>> In other words, do you think that Paul was using
> > something similar to the> Hebrew construct phrase? Or it a natural
> feature
> > of the Greek language to> link two nouns together (using the genitive in
> the
> > second) to express a> adjectival relationship?>> Best regards,> Jason>>>
> On
> > 8/15/06, Carl W. Conrad wrote:> >> >> > On Aug
>
> > 14, 2006, at 9:50 PM, Jason Kerrigan wrote:> >> > > Revelation 12:14:
> TOU
> > AETOU TOU MEGALOU, reads, "great eagle."> > > Likewise I have bellieved
> > that: THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU in Titus 2:13> > > would read, "Great
> Glory."
> > Can anyone shed some light on why> > > MEGALOU would be descriptive of
> the
> > antecedent noun in Revelation> > > 12:14 but not in Titus 2:13? I am
> open to
> > correction.> >> > Jason, this is Greek 101, lesson 3 or 4: positions of
> the
> > article in> > relation to adjective and noun when all are in agreement
> as
> > to> > number, gender, and case:> >> > Standard Attributive position: TO
> MEGA
> > BIBLION: "the big book" --> > (article, adjective, and noun are all
> neuter
> > singular; the adjective> > is "sandwiched" between the article and the
> > noun)> > Alternative Attributive position TO BIBLION TO MEGA: "the big
> > book"> > or "the book, the big (one)" -- the article-noun group is
> followed
> > by> > a repeated article and adjective agreeing with the noun; the
> function>
> > > of the repeated article here is to reference the immediately> >
> preceding
> > noun and relate the adjective to that preceding noun; this> > is very
> > similar to apposition of "the book" and "the big one" and it> > is also
> very
> > similar to a relative clause with ellipsis of the verb:> > "the book
> which
> > (is) big."> >> > Note that in both these constructions the adjective is
> > "embraced" by> > the article which, like the adjective, has the same
> > number, gender,> > and case as the noun.> >> > Different from the above
> are
> > versions of the Predicate position:> >> > MEGA TO BIBLION, TO BIBLION
> MEGA
> > -- in both these formulations the> > verb "be" is in ellipsis (that's
> > standard Greek practice). Both> > formulations mean "The book is big.">
> >> >
> > The formulation in Rev 12:14 is what I have above called the> >
> "Alternative
> > attributive position": TOU AETOU TOU MEGALOU is the> > genitive-case
> form of
> > "the eagle, the big (one)" or identical in> > meaning to "the big
> eagle.">
> > >> > But in Titus 2:13 you're isolating elements that belong together> >
> > grammatically () and linking elements that don't belong together> >
> > grammatically> >> > PROSDECOMENOI THN MAKARIAN ELPIDA KAI EPIFANEIAN THS
> > DOXHS TOU> > MEGALOU QEOU KAI SWTHROS hHMWN IHSOU CRISTOU ...> > lit.
> > "awaiting the happy expectation and appearing of the glory of> > our
> great
> > God and savior Jesus Christ ... "> >> > THS DOXHS is genitive singular
> > feminine dependent upon the preceding> > noun EPIFANEIAN (here
> functioning
> > as if it were an adjective: "of> > glory" = "glorious), but TOU MEGALOU
> QEOU
> > KAI SWTHROS hHMWN is> > genitive singular masculine dependent upon the
> > preceding noun> > EPIFANEIAN: "appearing of our great God and saviior.">
> >>
> > > In sum, you could not at all view the relationship between TOU AETOU>
> >
> > TOU MEGALOU and THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU as comparable if you really> >
> > understood something that is very basic to ancient Greek syntax. You> >
> have
> > focused upon the superficial fact that the phrases you've cited> > from
> Rev
> > 12:14 and Titus 2:13 each consist of a genitive article and> > genitive
> noun
> > followed by another genitive article followed by> > another genitive
> form in
> > agreement with the article -- but you have> > failed to see the
> syntactic
> > relationship of the elements in the> > larger group and have actually
> > isolated THS DOXHS TOU MEGALOU from> > the larger syntactic group in
> which
> > it belongs.> >> > Carl W. Conrad> > Department of Classics, Washington
> > University (Retired)> > 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828)
> > 675-4243> > cwconrad2 at mac.com> > WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/> >>
> >>
> > > ---> > B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek> > B-Greek
> > mailing list> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org> >
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek> >>>>> --> Jason A.
> > Hare> jaihare at gmail.com> Joplin, Missouri (USA)> ---> B-Greek home page:
> > http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek> B-Greek mailing list>
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
>
>
>
> --
>
> William Ross
> VGB, Argentina
> ---
>
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>
>
>
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
>
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-- 

William Ross
VGB, Argentina



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