[B-Greek] A curiousity-how to read when against the grain?

Randall Buth randallbuth at gmail.com
Sun Dec 3 06:54:02 EST 2006


TW IAKWBW TW PATRI
XAIREIN

EVXARISTW SOI UPER THS SOU EPISTOLHS.

Everything you write is correct. [[and transparent for you because of
using a five-vowel modern pronunciation (NE'A PROFORA')]].
[[Incidently, some proto-Byzantine-type manuscripts read SABAXQANEI,
like A and W. That is in accord with the older traditions like
Caesarean SABAXQANEI, Western ZAFQANEI, and Alexandrian SABAXQANEI,
and explains Westcott-Hort's SABAXQANEI.]]
However, the question was not about 'how' those texts were pronounced
in anitquity. As you note, it is clear that EI was I. [This is widely
recognized by all who have looked at the question
linguistically/phonologically.] The question is is about how readers
today deal with those texts.

My question is more for either Erasmian or 'reformed' [Allen-Daitz
W=aw in 'awe', H=˜ æ] pronunciations. How do they read those NT texts
as spelled in antiquity/or-in-WestcottHort? And what would they do the
same or different if they came to the conclusion that Matthew wrote
something like HLEI HLEI LAMA SABAXQANEI?

there are many on this list with that background. I am wondering how
they read and what they do? This will help me in preparing 'bridge'
materials and explanations for students.

(By the way, manuscripts B,A,D,L, Qeta, and WestcottHort also spell
HLEIAN with EI. This would repeat the same questions as above. Also,
does anyone know on what basis UBS changed WH "SABAXQANEI" to
"SABAXQANI"?)

ERRWSO
Randall Buth

On 12/3/06, frjsilver at optonline.net <frjsilver at optonline.net> wrote:
> Dear Friends --
>
> Just for the sake of contrast and comparison, the 'official' NT text of the Church of Greece has HLI HLI LIMA SABACQANI, perfectly reflected (at least phonetically) by the Church Slavonic _ili ili lima savakhthani_.
>
> This is only slightly different from the liturgical gospel book, which reads HLI HLI LAMA SABACQANI.
>
> The Vulgata Latina presents 'Heli Heli lema sabacthani.'  This suggests that St Jerome might have seen a LHMA form in some Greek text;  he would not have rendered H as I, no matter how it was actually pronounced in his day.
>
> David Stern's 'Jewish New Testament' takes care to present Hebrew and Aramaic forms in transliteration as closely as possible to the sounds of their original languages, and he gives us 'Eli! Eli! L'mah sh'vaktani!'
>
> I suppose the point of all these comparisons is merely that the transcription SABACQANEI and its emendation to SABACQANI indicates that EI and I were aurally indistinguishable in first-century AD Greek.
>
> This sort of itacism reinforces what I wrote you earlier, that a (largely) Modern Greek pronunciation of NT Greek is widely attestable in Hellenistic and later palaiography, whether on papyrus or in stone.
>
> Peace and blessings to all.
>
> Father James Silver
>
> Monk James
> Orthodox Church in America
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randall Buth
> Date: Friday, December 1, 2006 6:17 am
> Subject: [B-Greek] A curiousity-how to read when against the grain?
> To: "B-Greek at Lists. Org"
>
> > A curiousity has arisen for me in the last spate of discussions on
> > KOINH PROFORA --
> >
> > Exactly what do people do and how do people read
> > when they encounter a text like Matthew 27:46
> > HLEI HLEI LAMA SABAXQANEI? (e.g. 'Theta' and Caesarean)
> >
> > How would they read that if it were printed in their Greek NT?
> >
> > What would happen if they thought that that is how Matthew
> > spelled it?
> > This question ought to be pretty interesting on this list.
> >
> > Finally, (partially a TC question, but more language oriented
> > than TC)
> > Why has Westcott and Hort's SABAXQANEI been changed to SABAXQANI
> > in NestleAland?
> > Is there any ground for arguing that NA are iimposing 'their language'
> > over manuscripts on this point? How do people feel about it, if so?
> >
> > [[the first part of WH's Mt27:46 "ELWI ELWI" is based on a harmonistic
> > reading of the Alexandrian texts with Mark. NA and UBS follow
> > the more
> > difficult,
> > different texts HLEI HLEI//HLI HLI, though again, NA and UBS do
> > not follow the
> > old uncials that read HLEI. The issue for this list is not ELWI
> > versus HLEI,
> > but how do people read HLEI and how do they feel about it
> > possibly being
> > changed into HLI in their printed texts? Discussion can be
> > limited to
> > SABAXQANEI above, since that is the same issue and will not lead to
> > misunderstandings or side issues about textual matters.]]
> >
> > Hopefully, the above is clear enough to get answers to the curiousity.
> > How do people read WH's SABAXQANEI? How do they deal with it?
> > Would it change if they thought it were original to the New Testament?
> >
> > PS: this is a real question for me, it is not a rhetorical question.
> >
> > ERRWSQE
> > Randall Buth
> >
> >
> > --
> > Randall Buth, PhD
> > www.biblicalulpan.org
> > χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη
> > שלום לכם וברכות
> > ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il
> > randallbuth at gmail.com
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
>


-- 
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη πληθυνθείη
שלום לכם וברכות
ybitan at mscc.huji.ac.il
randallbuth at gmail.com


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