[B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Sat Dec 16 12:22:49 EST 2006


It seems to me that this is a question, NOT of what the Greek text as  
a Greek text means, but how to interpret what the Greek text and most  
translations state quite clearly. It may well be that Jesus is  
asking, in this passage, whether Peter's career as a fisherman means  
more to him than Jesus -- but does anyone honestly believe that the  
Greek text itself AS A GREEK TEXT provides an answer to that question?

On Dec 16, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Edward Andrews wrote:

> George:
>
>
> I agree with your point. This possibility fits the way the question is
> phrased in Greek, for Peter was being asked to choose between two  
> things
> (between Jesus and "these"). Such a question would also be  
> appropriate in
> view of Peter's past. He had been one of the first disciples to follow
> Jesus. (John 1:35-42) Apparently, though, Peter did not immediately  
> follow
> Jesus full-time. Rather, he returned to his fishing. Thus, some  
> months later
> Jesus called Peter away from that substantial business to become a  
> 'fisher
> of men.' (Matthew 4:18-20; Luke 5:1-11) Nonetheless, after Jesus'  
> death,
> Peter initiated a return to this career, telling some of the  
> disciples: "I
> am going fishing."-John 21:2, 3.
>
> So it is quite possible that Jesus was driving home to Peter the  
> need for
> making a decisive choice. What was he going to put foremost in life- 
> being a
> follower of Jesus or pursuing a career, as suggested by the fish piled
> before them? How significant a place did the fish, the nets, the  
> boats, and
> the camaraderie with fellow fishermen hold in Peter's heart? Would  
> Peter
> truly abandon those enjoyable things to put foremost his love for  
> Christ and
> the consequent feeding of Jesus' "little sheep"?-John 21:17.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> To: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>; <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>
>
>> Iver,
>>
>> The only part of this that was tongue-in-cheek was the manner in  
>> which it
>> was presented.  It was not, of course, just fish but the associations
>> which go along with the fish -- the fishing life including the boats,
>> nets, companions, the food it produces.  I think J. Harold  
>> Greenlee in the
>> article that Oun Kwon pointed out is exactly correct.  It is not a
>> comparison of Peter's love of Christ to that of Peter for the other
>> disciples or Peter's love for Christ in comparison with the love  
>> of the
>> other disciples for Christ. With Rob I vote for fish!
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:31:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Jn 21.13 & 21.15 How much do you love me?
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <RRedden604 at aol.com>
>>
>>
>>> Fellows,
>>>
>>>  An ambiguous use of the pronoun, either intentional or not,  whose
>>> antecedent can be fish or the love of the other men for  Jesus.   
>>> I vote
>>> for fish!
>>> Once a fisherman always a  fisherman!
>>>
>>> Rob Redden
>>
>> I can see the tongue in cheek, but still...
>>
>> Because of the way ellipsis works in the Greek there is really no
>> ambiguity in AGAPAiS ME PLEON
>> TOUTWN, confer the discussion of this topic in May 2002. One has  
>> to carry
>> over the verb and object
>> from the first part of the sentence to the next: Dou you love me  
>> more than
>> these (love me)?
>> The ambiguity is introduced by the literal rendering of the KJV and
>> subsequent literal versions,
>> because English has different rules for ellipsis. The correct English
>> translation is: Do you love me
>> more than these do.
>> This is just one of numerous examples where literal translations can
>> easily mislead the readers.
>>
>> Iver Larsen
>>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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