[B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative

James Spinti JSpinti at Eisenbrauns.com
Tue Dec 19 12:33:12 EST 2006


True. But what I said about definiteness and suffixes applies equally to Aramaic and Hebrew; my Akkadian is too rusty to be sure of, but there is a "bound form" which has the nominal suffix. I don't recall a definite article in Akkadian, does anyone remember?

HTH,
James
________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788 

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of 
> George F Somsel
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 12:26 PM
> To: James Spinti; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> 
> 
> While discussing the influence of Semitic on Greek (or the 
> lack thereof), let me clarify one point.  We frequently use 
> the term "Semitic" to refer to Jews and Hebrew.  It should be 
> recalled that Akkadian was still being written when Alexander 
> spread the gospel of Hellenism and that Aramaic was the 
> language of commerce throughout the east (Yes, there is a 
> Latinized phrase for that, but I will leave it to you to supply).
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: James Spinti <JSpinti at Eisenbrauns.com>
> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:56:03 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> 
> 
> As an added argument against a Semitic vocative here: both 
> forms are genitival, which in Semitic would mean that they 
> are suffixed. You can't have both a definite and a suffix on 
> a Semitic word, since the suffix makes it definite.
> 
> HTH,
> James
> 
> ________________________________
> James Spinti
> Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
> Eisenbrauns, Good books for more than 30 years
> Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies
> jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
> Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
> Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
> Fax: 574-269-6788 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> > [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of 
> > George F Somsel
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:51 AM
> > To: Octavio Rodriguez; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> > 
> > 
> > I tend to question that this is a case of Semitic influence.  
> > Even BDF which does subscribe to the view that it was a 
> > "Semitic vocative" notes that this tendency is present all 
> > the way back to Homer.  I would therefore tend to think that 
> > this was an internal development of the Greek which certainly 
> > would not have been discouraged by Semitic usage.  BDF § 147 
> > also notes that 
> > 
> > "In the NT this is the case (1) generally with adjectives 
> > used alone or without a substantive where the vocative is 
> > clear; (2) with additions of all kinds to the vocative (Attic 
> > SU hO PRESBUTATOS, PROCENE KAI hOI ALLOI), especially with 
> > participles (§412(5)) which hardly ever form the vocative. 
> > (3) Attic used the nominative (with article) with simple 
> > substantives only in addressing inferiors, who were, so to 
> > speak, thereby addressed in the 3rd person (Aristoph., Ra. 
> > 521 hO PAIS, AKOLOUQEI)." 
> > 
> > Blass, F., Debrunner, A., & Funk, R. W. (1961). A Greek 
> > grammar of the New Testament and other early Christian 
> > literature (81). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
> > 
> >  
> > george
> > gfsomsel
> > _________
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Octavio Rodriguez <octaviors at gmail.com>
> > To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:24:38 AM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> > 
> > 
> > I have a question about the difference of a vocative such as 
> > KURIE and a
> > vocative such as hO KURIOS.
> > 
> > I have read that the first belongs to the ancient greek, and  
> > the second is
> > an influence of the the Hebrew where the article change the 
> > nominative to a
> > vocative.
> > Thus, the article here would be the signal for the vocative. 
> > Am i right?.
> > For example in John 20:28 we reads  hO KURIOS MOU KAI hO QEOS 
> > MOU, which
> > clearly is a semitic vocative due to the article.
> > 
> > However some people who knew greek  grammar  seemed not to 
> > see the article
> > for this function, for example Cyril of Alexandria (four 
> century)) who
> > seemed to know grammar well, said about John 20:28:
> > 
> > 
> > "Observe, too, that when he says *My Lord and my God, *he 
> > uses the article to
> > show that there was One Lord and One God. For he does not say 
> > without the
> > qualification of the article, KURIOS MOU KAI QEOS MOU*, *to 
> > prevent any one
> > from imagining that he called Him Lord or God as he might 
> > have done one of
> > ourselves or of the holy angels. " (Commentary on John book II)
> > 
> > The question is if Cyril was right about the grammar or may 
> be he was
> > unaware about when we have a semitic vocative.
> > 
> > Regards
> > 
> > Octavio Rodriguez
> > ---
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