[B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Dec 19 12:26:25 EST 2006


While discussing the influence of Semitic on Greek (or the lack thereof), let me clarify one point.  We frequently use the term "Semitic" to refer to Jews and Hebrew.  It should be recalled that Akkadian was still being written when Alexander spread the gospel of Hellenism and that Aramaic was the language of commerce throughout the east (Yes, there is a Latinized phrase for that, but I will leave it to you to supply).
 
george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: James Spinti <JSpinti at Eisenbrauns.com>
To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:56:03 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative


As an added argument against a Semitic vocative here: both forms are genitival, which in Semitic would mean that they are suffixed. You can't have both a definite and a suffix on a Semitic word, since the suffix makes it definite.

HTH,
James

________________________________
James Spinti
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of 
> George F Somsel
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:51 AM
> To: Octavio Rodriguez; B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> 
> 
> I tend to question that this is a case of Semitic influence.  
> Even BDF which does subscribe to the view that it was a 
> "Semitic vocative" notes that this tendency is present all 
> the way back to Homer.  I would therefore tend to think that 
> this was an internal development of the Greek which certainly 
> would not have been discouraged by Semitic usage.  BDF § 147 
> also notes that 
> 
> "In the NT this is the case (1) generally with adjectives 
> used alone or without a substantive where the vocative is 
> clear; (2) with additions of all kinds to the vocative (Attic 
> SU hO PRESBUTATOS, PROCENE KAI hOI ALLOI), especially with 
> participles (§412(5)) which hardly ever form the vocative. 
> (3) Attic used the nominative (with article) with simple 
> substantives only in addressing inferiors, who were, so to 
> speak, thereby addressed in the 3rd person (Aristoph., Ra. 
> 521 hO PAIS, AKOLOUQEI)." 
> 
> Blass, F., Debrunner, A., & Funk, R. W. (1961). A Greek 
> grammar of the New Testament and other early Christian 
> literature (81). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
> 
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Octavio Rodriguez <octaviors at gmail.com>
> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 11:24:38 AM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Question about the semitic vocative
> 
> 
> I have a question about the difference of a vocative such as 
> KURIE and a
> vocative such as hO KURIOS.
> 
> I have read that the first belongs to the ancient greek, and  
> the second is
> an influence of the the Hebrew where the article change the 
> nominative to a
> vocative.
> Thus, the article here would be the signal for the vocative. 
> Am i right?.
> For example in John 20:28 we reads  hO KURIOS MOU KAI hO QEOS 
> MOU, which
> clearly is a semitic vocative due to the article.
> 
> However some people who knew greek  grammar  seemed not to 
> see the article
> for this function, for example Cyril of Alexandria (four century)) who
> seemed to know grammar well, said about John 20:28:
> 
> 
> "Observe, too, that when he says *My Lord and my God, *he 
> uses the article to
> show that there was One Lord and One God. For he does not say 
> without the
> qualification of the article, KURIOS MOU KAI QEOS MOU*, *to 
> prevent any one
> from imagining that he called Him Lord or God as he might 
> have done one of
> ourselves or of the holy angels. " (Commentary on John book II)
> 
> The question is if Cyril was right about the grammar or may be he was
> unaware about when we have a semitic vocative.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Octavio Rodriguez
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