[B-Greek] Fw: Analytical Greek Lexicon
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Sun Jan 29 06:23:38 EST 2006
Well, it looks nice on Firefox; I particularly like the capacity to
set frequency levels for glosses to appear. Also the fact that
there's no parsing, only glosses in terms of what phrases mean, is a
positive feature in terms of learner use: one still has to interact
with the Greek words and figure out HOW they're supposed to mean what
the gloss indicates. But the glosses (I presume this is a one verse -
John 3:16 - experiment) would need to be more sophisticated I think;
here hOUTWS is glossed as "such" and PAS hO PISTEUWN as "all those
who believe." That gives a hint at the meaning but it doesn't help
the beginning Greek student very much.
Zack Hubert's site has hovering parsing and gloss, but more
important, it has instant access to a plethora of concordance info--
and its glosses are fuller and open to correction or expansion,
subject to approval (not quite like Wikipedia).
James calls our discussion of interlinears a "permathread." That's
true enough; it recurs with almost automatic frequency with the same
extreme stances sure to come to the surface (that interlinear texts
hinder REAL acquisition of reading skills, that interlinear texts are
the ONLY useful way to acquire reading skills. But as Zack and James
have shown, it's possible to strike a balance between the little bit
of help needed when a text leaves one clueless and the practical
equivalent of reading the Greek text with a good translation and
Strong's questionable notes on Greek words.
Of the resources currently available along these lines, the one that
I personally find most appealing (although I haven't acquired a copy)
is the NET diglot with full NET version and notes and facing NA27/
UBS4 text. There is no PERFECT resource, and one can quarrel with
some of the notes in NET but it provides a pretty good commentary on
problems and alternative possibilities for understanding the Greek text.
On Jan 28, 2006, at 10:13 PM, James Tauber wrote:
> For a simple demonstration of the kind of thing I'm talking about,
> see:
>
> http://jtauber.com/blog/2006/01/28/
> dynamic_interlinears_with_javascript_and_css
>
> This is just a start but it gives you the idea of how interlinears
> don't have to be static.
>
> Note: I've only tested it on Safari and Firefox. I don't know if it
> works in Internet Explorer.
>
> James Tauber
>
>
> On 28/01/2006, at 8:50 PM, James Tauber wrote:
>
>> I think there is perhaps a middle ground here made possible by
>> technology.
>>
>> The problem with printed interlinears is the gloss is always there. A
>> far better approach would be for the existence of glosses to be
>> tailored to the particular stage a reader is at. A complete beginner
>> would start off with all the glosses visible but then the glosses
>> would start to "drop off" in some graded way. This could be based
>> only on the lemma of the word but also its morphology and even
>> syntax.
>>
>> I'm actually working on a website at the moment that would facilitate
>> this kind of thing.
>>
>> James
>> --
>> James Tauber http://jtauber.com/
>> journeyman of some http://jtauber.com/blog/
>>
>>
>> On 28/01/2006, at 5:53 PM, Ernest Blum wrote:
>>
>>> Re "Analytical Greek Lexicon:
>>>
>>> Bert de Haan should not be apologetic about investigating
>>> unorthodox methods
>>> to learn to read Greek.
>>>
>>> The fact is that he can easily read the 24 books of the Iliad in
>>> Greek in
>>> one month. It's not the kind of reading that the scholars on b-
>>> greek do or
>>> advocate, but it beats Lattimore, I guarantee it.
>>>
>>> I would plead with Bert de Haan to go to the internet and find a
>>> copy of
>>> Thomas Clark's interlinear translation of "The Iliad of
>>> Homer" (David McKay
>>> Co., 1952. He'll never regret it.
>>>
>>> Those who denounce interlinear translations, analytical lexicons
>>> and other
>>> "crutches" are confusing writing with reading. What one sees on "b-
>>> greek"
>>> is Greek viewed from the viewpoint of the writer, not the reader.
>>> The fact
>>> is that a native reader of any language is rarely aware of the
>>> gramatical
>>> substrate of the sentences he is reading. Why should Bert de Haan
>>> have to
>>> do this for Greek when he doesn't do so for his native language?
>>>
>>> The answer is that Greek scholars, beginning with "Perseus" et al,
>>> have
>>> failed to responsibly furnish neophyte readers with the "crutches"
>>> that
>>> every beginner has a right to expect.
>>>
>>> The reason: There is an unfortunate and universal theory in
>>> academia that
>>> the only way to read a foreign language is by knowing grammar and
>>> memorizing
>>> a vocabulary list, enabling one to deductively "decipher" those
>>> mysterious
>>> foreign writings.
>>>
>>> But all native speakers originally acquire their languages by
>>> induction, not
>>> deduction, and adults can repeat this process through interlinear
>>> translations. (Also helpful is a voice-over, vide "The Iliad of
>>> Homer"
>>> tapes, read by Stephen G. Daitz).
>>>
>>> Speaking for myself, I have learned to read a dozen languages,
>>> including
>>> Homer and GNT, through interlinear translations or other
>>> "crutches" with
>>> comprehensive vocabulary lists on each page of text, with the barest
>>> smattering of grammar. One then advances to the original text
>>> without
>>> English, referring to the interlinear text only for increasingly
>>> diminished
>>> difficulties.
>>>
>>> Even though this method does not allow me to see the text from the
>>> vantage
>>> point of a native writer or grammarian--and this is certainly
>>> necessary for
>>> full language mastery, not to say indispensable for scholars--
>>> such a
>>> vantage point is not at all a factor required for semantic and
>>> aesthetic
>>> understanding. How could it be when we are totally oblivious to
>>> grammar
>>> when reading our own language?
>>>
>>> What Bert de Haan has heard in this (and other interchanges on b-
>>> greek) is
>>> equivalent to having a music teacher dissuade him from listening to
>>> Mozart's 41st Symphony before learning how to play the piano and
>>> mastering
>>> music theory.
>>>
>>> Ernest Blum
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2006 8:10 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Analytical Greek Lexicon
>>>
>>>
>>>> After re-reading my previous post I thought that it could come
>>>> across as
>>>> rather polemic.
>>>> It was not intended that way. My intention in asking these
>>>> questions was
>>> to
>>>> get an answer, not to ruffle anyones feathers.
>>>> Bert de Haan.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
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>>>
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>>
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>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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