[B-Greek] John 5:29

Webb webb at selftest.net
Tue Jan 31 16:29:07 EST 2006


Carl and Dony,
I don't recall how to put this technically, but my point is this:
Suppose someone asks me, "What do the genitives--as genitives--tell me about
the relationship between resurrection and judgment, resurrection and life in
Jn 5:29?" 
I'll answer, "They tell us that the one resurrection is characterized by
life, the other by judgment."
Now suppose someone goes on and asks, "Is it possible that the genitive in
life and judgment here is to be rendered 'resurrection for life' and
'resurrection for judgment' (denoting purpose) ...?"
I'll answer, "Yes, it is a possible way of rendering the gist of the
characterization--that it is essentially the purpose of the two
resurrections that's being characterized. But it all depends on who you ask.
Some, such as myself, will regard that as an over-interpretation." 
It's not the grammatical form and function as such that tells us that
purpose is in John's mind: it's conclusions based on larger issues like the
semantics of the immediate context, all the way up to matters of systematic
theology.
We're still talking about grammar, but we're forming conclusions about fine
points of grammar based on conclusions about larger meanings, not forming
conclusions about larger meanings based on fine points of grammar.
Webb Mealy
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at ioa.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:44 AM
> To: Dony K.Donev
> Cc: webb at selftest.net; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
> 
> I don't think this is a matter of theological interpretation
> intruding on understanding of the grammar, but I do think it is a
> matter of interpretation of a construction that in itself is a
> grammatical rather than a semantic structure. I've complained about
> the multiplication of sub-categories of adnominal/adjectival
> genitives in Wallace's GGBB when they are all really comparable to
> English hyphenated nominal phrases: "life-resurrection" and
> "condemnation-resurrection." I'm amused that the reference work here
> cited puts it as it does: "some grammarians classify ..." (implying,
> I think, that others do not). I don't object to contextual
> interpretation of these genitive expressions, but in terms of form
> they are not different from "subjective genitives" and "objective
> genitives" and half a dozen other subcategories that "some
> grammarians" find useful primarily as an aid to translating Greek
> into English or some other target language.
> 
> 
> On Jan 31, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Dony K. Donev wrote:
> 
> > Kenneth G. Wilson (1923-).  The Columbia Guide to Standard American
> > English.
> > 1993.
> > GENITIVE OF PURPOSE: Some grammarians classify certain descriptive
> > genitives
> > as genitives of purpose. The inflected form (women's locker room,
> > boys'
> > bicycles) is matched by a periphrastic form made usually with for
> > rather
> > than the otherwise more frequent of (locker rooms for women,
> > bicycles for
> > boys).
> >
> > Dony K. Donev
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Webb" <webb at selftest.net>
> > To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
> >
> >
> >> I think bringing the idea of "purpose" to the surface constitutes a
> >> theological, rather than strictly grammatical, interpretation of the
> >> genitives.
> >> ANASTASIN ZWHS, KRISEWS
> >> In _Idioms of the Greek New Testament_, Porter's first
> >> classification of
> >> genetive uses is "quality, definition or description", which, he
> >> says,
> >> "might well be considered the essential use of the genetive case".
> >> Applying this to our texts results in "a resurrection of [i.e.
> >> characterized
> >> by] life", and "a resurrection of [i.e. characterized by]
> >> judgment". One
> >> can
> >> say that the one is characterized by life and the other by judgment
> >> because
> >> God wants it that way, i.e. because that is the divine purpose of
> >> each--but
> >> now you're doing theology. Are there other theological approaches
> >> equally
> >> consistent with this grammar? Absolutely.
> >> Webb Mealy
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> >> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> >>> On Behalf Of kgraham0938 at comcast.net
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:53 AM
> >>> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
> >>>
> >>> @Dony,
> >>>
> >>> yes, that is how I would understand the genitives here.  As
> >>> destination
> >>> or
> >> purpose.
> >>>
> >>> BDF $ 166. A genitive of purpose (or result) appears in ANASTASIN
> >>> ZWHS,
> >>> KRISEWS, 'to life, judgement' Jn 5:29...  So I think you are right.
> >>> --
> >>> Kelton Graham
> >>> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
> >>>
> >>> -------------- Original message --------------
> >>> From: "Dony K. Donev" <dony at cupandcross.com>
> >>>
> >>>> John 5:29
> >>>>
> >>>> Is it possible that the genitive in life and judgment here is
> >>>> rendered
> >>>> "resurrection for life" and "resurrection for judgment" (denoting
> >> purpose)
> >>>> instead of the possessive "of life" and "of judgment?"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Dony K. Donev
> >>>> ---
> >>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
> >>>> B-Greek mailing list
> >>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>>> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >>> ---
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> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> >> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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> >
> > ---
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> 
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/






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