[B-Greek] John 5:29
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at ioa.com
Tue Jan 31 17:36:13 EST 2006
That's pretty much what I thought I had said in fewer words.
On Jan 31, 2006, at 4:29 PM, Webb wrote:
> Carl and Dony,
> I don't recall how to put this technically, but my point is this:
> Suppose someone asks me, "What do the genitives--as genitives--tell
> me about
> the relationship between resurrection and judgment, resurrection
> and life in
> Jn 5:29?"
> I'll answer, "They tell us that the one resurrection is
> characterized by
> life, the other by judgment."
> Now suppose someone goes on and asks, "Is it possible that the
> genitive in
> life and judgment here is to be rendered 'resurrection for life' and
> 'resurrection for judgment' (denoting purpose) ...?"
> I'll answer, "Yes, it is a possible way of rendering the gist of the
> characterization--that it is essentially the purpose of the two
> resurrections that's being characterized. But it all depends on who
> you ask.
> Some, such as myself, will regard that as an over-interpretation."
> It's not the grammatical form and function as such that tells us that
> purpose is in John's mind: it's conclusions based on larger issues
> like the
> semantics of the immediate context, all the way up to matters of
> systematic
> theology.
> We're still talking about grammar, but we're forming conclusions
> about fine
> points of grammar based on conclusions about larger meanings, not
> forming
> conclusions about larger meanings based on fine points of grammar.
> Webb Mealy
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at ioa.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 11:44 AM
>> To: Dony K.Donev
>> Cc: webb at selftest.net; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
>>
>> I don't think this is a matter of theological interpretation
>> intruding on understanding of the grammar, but I do think it is a
>> matter of interpretation of a construction that in itself is a
>> grammatical rather than a semantic structure. I've complained about
>> the multiplication of sub-categories of adnominal/adjectival
>> genitives in Wallace's GGBB when they are all really comparable to
>> English hyphenated nominal phrases: "life-resurrection" and
>> "condemnation-resurrection." I'm amused that the reference work here
>> cited puts it as it does: "some grammarians classify ..." (implying,
>> I think, that others do not). I don't object to contextual
>> interpretation of these genitive expressions, but in terms of form
>> they are not different from "subjective genitives" and "objective
>> genitives" and half a dozen other subcategories that "some
>> grammarians" find useful primarily as an aid to translating Greek
>> into English or some other target language.
>>
>>
>> On Jan 31, 2006, at 1:20 PM, Dony K. Donev wrote:
>>
>>> Kenneth G. Wilson (1923-). The Columbia Guide to Standard American
>>> English.
>>> 1993.
>>> GENITIVE OF PURPOSE: Some grammarians classify certain descriptive
>>> genitives
>>> as genitives of purpose. The inflected form (women's locker room,
>>> boys'
>>> bicycles) is matched by a periphrastic form made usually with for
>>> rather
>>> than the otherwise more frequent of (locker rooms for women,
>>> bicycles for
>>> boys).
>>>
>>> Dony K. Donev
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Webb" <webb at selftest.net>
>>> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 1:10 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
>>>
>>>
>>>> I think bringing the idea of "purpose" to the surface constitutes a
>>>> theological, rather than strictly grammatical, interpretation of
>>>> the
>>>> genitives.
>>>> ANASTASIN ZWHS, KRISEWS
>>>> In _Idioms of the Greek New Testament_, Porter's first
>>>> classification of
>>>> genetive uses is "quality, definition or description", which, he
>>>> says,
>>>> "might well be considered the essential use of the genetive case".
>>>> Applying this to our texts results in "a resurrection of [i.e.
>>>> characterized
>>>> by] life", and "a resurrection of [i.e. characterized by]
>>>> judgment". One
>>>> can
>>>> say that the one is characterized by life and the other by judgment
>>>> because
>>>> God wants it that way, i.e. because that is the divine purpose of
>>>> each--but
>>>> now you're doing theology. Are there other theological approaches
>>>> equally
>>>> consistent with this grammar? Absolutely.
>>>> Webb Mealy
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of kgraham0938 at comcast.net
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 8:53 AM
>>>>> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 5:29
>>>>>
>>>>> @Dony,
>>>>>
>>>>> yes, that is how I would understand the genitives here. As
>>>>> destination
>>>>> or
>>>> purpose.
>>>>>
>>>>> BDF $ 166. A genitive of purpose (or result) appears in ANASTASIN
>>>>> ZWHS,
>>>>> KRISEWS, 'to life, judgement' Jn 5:29... So I think you are
>>>>> right.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Kelton Graham
>>>>> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
>>>>>
>>>>> -------------- Original message --------------
>>>>> From: "Dony K. Donev" <dony at cupandcross.com>
>>>>>
>>>>>> John 5:29
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it possible that the genitive in life and judgment here is
>>>>>> rendered
>>>>>> "resurrection for life" and "resurrection for judgment" (denoting
>>>> purpose)
>>>>>> instead of the possessive "of life" and "of judgment?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dony K. Donev
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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>>>>>> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
>> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>> cwconrad2 at mac.com
>> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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