[B-Greek] FW: John 1:1c

Barry nebarry at verizon.net
Wed Jul 5 18:56:29 EDT 2006



N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Adjunct Faculty & IT Support
The Center for Urban Theological Studies
http://www.cuts.edu
Classics Instructor, The American Academy
http://www.theamericanacademy.net

And my site:

http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry


-----Original Message-----
From: Barry [mailto:nebarry at verizon.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 6:48 PM
To: 'Rolf Furuli'
Subject: RE: [B-Greek] John 1:1c

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]
> On Behalf Of Rolf Furuli
> Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 12:05 PM
> To: B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 1:1c


> I am not a native English speaker, so I do not have the same linguistic
> intuition as you.

Thanks for that admission.  What really matters is the Greek, though, right?
You are the one who introduced what you see as a problem with the English.

> However, I think that the crucial issue in the English trandtional
rendering
> of John 1:1c is more related to linguistics than to intuition.
> This is the crucial issue: Is the word "God" with capital "G" in English a
> singular noun which is equivalent to a proper name? If that is the case,
the
> words "the Word" and "God" in the rendering "and the Word was God" are
> convertible terms. That would mean that the Word and God in every respect
> are identical. Your example above is not relevant, since "man" is not a
> proper name, but the following examples may illustrate the case:
 
> 1) Jesus is YHWH.

Works for me.

 
> 2) Jesus is the Father.

On the level of linguistics, this certainly works.  On hermeneutical level,
one might find various problems with the statement, but we are supposed to
be talking about linguistic issues.

 
> In 1) the nominative predicate is a proper name, and in 2) the nominative
> predicate is a singular noun which is equivalent to a proper name. The
only
> possible interpretation of the two propositions that I see, is that Jesus
> and YHWH  are identical in every respect and the same is true with Jesus
and
> the Father. One
> commentator who views the word "God" as I have argued above, is M. J.
> Harris. His book "Jesus as God: The New Testament Use of Theos in
Reference
> to Jesus" (1992) is the most thorough treatment of John 1:1 and related
> passages of which I am aware. On page 69 Harris says: "But in normal
English
> usage "God" is a proper noun...Moreover, "the word was God" suggests that
> "the Word" and "God" are convertible terms, that the proposition is
> reciprocating.". It would be interesting to hear from one or more of the
> linguists on the list if there are serious objections to the views of
Harris
> and myself,

Now you are starting to realize why this passage has been so intriguing over
the centuries to various interpreters.  However, I don't agree with your
primary premise, that even the possibility of it being a proper name means
that the statement is linguistically impossible.  That rather depends on the
definition of what is named, doesn't it?
 
> BH:
> Rolf, this is quite amusing, actually.  You have just done what you have
> stated is linguistically impossible.
> 
> RF:
> I do not understand what you mean here.

It's very simple: you have made the very statement that you say is not
linguistically possible.  My point is that the statement is certainly
linguistically possible, because it can be done.  What you actually mean, I
think, is that it is not logically possible, since you seem to see it quite
literally as a violation of Aristotelian logic.

> RF:
> I respect your right to have your opinion regarding the meaning of John´s
> words. However, if "God" in normal English is equivalent to a proper name,
> the rendering "and the Word was God" contradicts your explanations above.

Not only is the word God in English used as a proper name, but it is also
used as a singular class of being.  It is possible in English to describe
anything in terms of that being, though this introduces a whole host of
interpretive issues.


N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Adjunct Faculty & IT Support
The Center for Urban Theological Studies
http://www.cuts.edu
Classics Instructor, The American Academy
http://www.theamericanacademy.net

And my site:

http://mysite.verizon.net/nebarry






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