[B-Greek] TADE in Revelation

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Mar 17 13:05:38 EST 2006


On Mar 17, 2006, at 11:22 AM, David Bielby wrote:

> Thank you.  That makes sense to me.  So then John's use here in Rev  
> 2 &
> 3 does not necessarily support the idea that he was drenching  
> himself in
> the LXX version of Ezekiel?
>
> Also-I don't know Hebrew so I didn't comprehend your  
> transliteration of
> Hebrew when you said
>
>
> Carl wrote below-->I don't doubt that TADE LEGEI
> in the LXX commonly conveys Hebrew COH AMAR IHWH, but the common
> usage reflects standard traditional Greek usage of TADE.
>
> What does that mean in english?

If you're referring to COH AMAR IHWH, that's the phrase that's  
commonly rendered, "Thus says the Lord"
>
> Thank you so much!
>
> David Bielby
> dbielby at bloomingtonvineyard.org
> www.bloomingtonvineyard.org
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl W. Conrad [mailto:cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu]
> Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2006 10:02 AM
> To: Iver Larsen
> Cc: David Bielby; BG
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] TADE in Revelation
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2006, at 2:17 AM, Iver Larsen wrote:
>
>>> I'm also interested to know what the significance is of the word
>>> TADE in
>>> Revelation 2-3 which is
>>> only used in three times outside of Revelation in the GNT, yet is
>>> used
>>> extensively in the LXX.
>>>
>>> In particular the Torah & Major Prophets.  In particular I see a
>>> phrase
>>> TADE LEGEI used in
>>> a number of prophetic passages like Ezekiel  44:9 which says DIA
>>> TOUTO
>>> TADE LEGEI KURIOS hO QEOS..
>>> and is repeated in a number of passages in Ezekiel.   I just find it
>>> interesting when a GNT term is rare.but
>>> common in the LXX.   Does this phrase in Rev 2:1 and the others I'm
>>> looking at (Rev 2:8, 12, 18, 3:1, 7 & 14)
>>
>>> TWi ANGELWi THS EN EFESWi EKKLHSIAS GRAYON.TADE LEGEI hO KRATWN TOUS
>>> hEPTA ASTERAS
>>> EN Thi DEXIAi AUTOU not resonate with the phrases in Ezekiel
>>> That say.TADE LEGEI KURIOS QEOS..and should this be seen as a self
>>> reference to his deity?
>>> Isn't it interesting that the only use of TADE outside of
>>> Revelation in
>>> the GNT that uses the phrase TADE LEGEI also refers clearly to Deity
>>> (Acts 21:11b-TADE LEGE TO PNEUMA TO AGION.)  When TADE is used
>>> outside
>>> of that 'formula' if you will.it seems to be simply descriptive.
>>> So my
>>> question this.does my line of thinking fit with the usage of TADE in
>>> general?  was this a pattern outside the NT literature.am I off on
>>> this
>>> idea or close to what's right?
>>
>> The demonstrative hODE had pretty much gone out of use at the time
>> of the NT (10 occurrences in the GNT and 454 in LXX).
>> Its occurrence in Revelation probably means that it stands for a
>> Hebrew word (koh) that was still in use.
>>
>> I think you can compare it with English "thus" as in "Thus says the
>> Lord..."  People don't speak like that anymore
>> unless in specific situations.
>> Revelation has a flavor in Greek not unlike the KJV in English. The
>> TADE may well have caused the readers to remember
>> similar expressions in the Hebraic LXX.
>
> Granted that TADE appears only 8x in Rev and other forms of hODE only
> 2x in the GNT, it is not true that hODE is obsolete in Hellenistic
> Greek. TADE as pointed forward to cited material or a list and
> functioning more or less like a colon in modern punctuation is
> standard Greek from pretty far back and is found in Philo and
> Josephus and the early church fathers. I don't doubt that TADE LEGEI
> in the LXX commonly conveys Hebrew COH AMAR IHWH, but the common
> usage reflects standard traditional Greek usage of TADE.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
> 1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
> cwconrad2 at mac.com
> WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>
>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




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