[B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek

David Hindley dhindley at compuserve.com
Tue Oct 31 14:10:36 EST 2006


Anthony Buzzard said:

<<Certainly[, Amos,] if one has done some German before it is not too demanding...>>

Just about any romance language, really (French, German, Italian, even Spanish). They all have similar characteristics, seeing they
are based on Latin, and Latin has similar grammatical forms to Greek.

Respectfully,

Dave Hindley
Cleveland, Ohio USA


 

-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:

   1. Difficulties of Learning Greek (Amos Bender)
   2. Re: Difficulties of Learning Greek (Webb Sprague)
   3. Re: Difficulties of Learning Greek (George F Somsel)
   4. Re: Difficulties of Learning Greek (James Spinti)
   5. Re: Difficulties of Learning Greek (Kevin Riley)
   6. future perfects in   Matth. 18:18 (Bert de Haan)
   7. Re: future perfects in   Matth. 18:18 (Carl W. Conrad)
   8. Re: future perfects in Matth. 18:18 (Bert de Haan)
   9. Re: Acts 17:26-27 (Eddie Mishoe)
  10. Re: Acts 17:26-27 (Elizabeth Kline)
  11. Genitive Absolute - a fresh look (Carl W. Conrad)
  12. Re: Genitive Absolute - a fresh look (Carl W. Conrad)
  13. Missing letters in Funk's Grammar (Gerry)
  14. Re: Missing letters in Funk's Grammar (Carl W. Conrad)
  15. Re: Difficulties of Learning Greek (Anthony Buzzard)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 14:28:00 -0500
From: "Amos Bender" <bendersa at earthlink.net>
Subject: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <410-220061013019280109 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII




Amos Bender
bendersa at earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.
 
Difficulties of Learning Koine Greek,
 
Although the following might sound sort of wild, just think about it and see what you think.  I believe one very big reason Koine
Greek is so difficult to learn is because there is no solid and good pronunciation for it.  I am even afraid some markings about the
Greek text, and some rules of Greek pronunciation are not appropriate, and actually distort and destroy the real pronunciation.   
 
I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is very improper, since accent marks are not consistent on the different forms of the same
word.  Rather when a particular Greek word has a different form or ending, the accent often is moved to a different syllable of the
word making the word largely sound like a totally different word.    
 
I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is also very improper, because compound words are not sufficiently pronounced as the
individual words in the compond word, but rather the words are blended together in a way that makes a totally new and very rare
Greek word, while one cannot even hear the actual small words within the compound word as it is spoken!  
 
I have also noticed some places where the ruff breathing marks quite obviously are not consistent and correct, and which also messes
up the pronunciation.  
 
Another difficult issue about Greek is that some words seem to be spelled differently at different places, making one wonder whether
in old times the word was pronounced the same, even when spelled differently, or if it was also pronounced in different ways.  
 
I believe another reason learning Koine Greek is so difficult is because much of the Koine Greek education system focuses on very
technical and complicated grammar, rather than a hands on and real life experience with the words and language.  I believe more
emphasis needs to be placed on learning Greek root words and the many related forms of the word.  More emphasis also needs to be
placed in showing the relation between the Greek words and the English.  In learning a language one obviously must get very familiar
with the words and the various ways they are used.  Language largely must become subconscious.  Too much technical grammar can
distract one from really learning the language.  The following was written by someone struggling with very technical grammar;  
 
Hi guys
"I started on verbs, Mounce holds off verbs until  you get the noun system down, 15 chapters in he starts the Verbs. I am at
chapter 21 and I'm getting punch drunk, excuse the pun It's like I never heard of these words before this and I'm getting blasted
with words like mood voice, aspect, person, middle. Then on to Present active, present passive, present middle, future active,
future middle, deponents, Verbal  roots, future middle, liquid future active, liquid future middle, imperfect active, imperfect
middle passive.
Next week Aorist active and aorist middle. Wow that was a mouth full.     Please tell me it will sink in! Or some pointers wouldn't
be too bad at this point."  End of quote.
 
I believe two of the most powerful and useful tools to learn Greek would be, having a recording where a person reads a short phrase
of the Bible in English and then in Greek (while also at the same time having the Greek text appearing on a screen).  This would be
sort of like listening to a Greek speaker, with an interpreter.  The second useful tool would be to take well known songs and insert
appropriate Greek words in them instead of the English, so one could largely know what the Greek words mean because of the melody of
the song.  Yet neither of these two tools have really been developed as yet (although the one tool is being worked on).  Yet both of
these tools will need a good pronunciation.   
 
Yet even with all the difficulties about Koine Greek, I day by day am learning to read and understand it.  I can read many
Scriptures in the Septuagint quite easily, as well as in the New Testament.  Yet there are still verses that are very difficult for
me.  
 
God Bless
Amos Bender

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 11:35:24 -0800
From: "Webb Sprague" <webb.sprague at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID:
	<b11ea23c0610301135x8708e71r5eefbc88f557b4dc at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

I wonder if Macintosh computers can read Greek just like they do English (though I am sure it would sound quite strange...)

On 10/30/06, Amos Bender <bendersa at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Amos Bender
> bendersa at earthlink.net
> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
>
> Difficulties of Learning Koine Greek,
>
> Although the following might sound sort of wild, just think about it and see what you think.  I believe one very big reason Koine
Greek is so difficult to learn is because there is no solid and good pronunciation for it.  I am even afraid some markings about the
Greek text, and some rules of Greek pronunciation are not appropriate, and actually distort and destroy the real pronunciation.
>
> I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is very improper, since accent marks are not consistent on the different forms of the
same word.  Rather when a particular Greek word has a different form or ending, the accent often is moved to a different syllable of
the word making the word largely sound like a totally different word.
>
> I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is also very improper, because compound words are not sufficiently pronounced as the
individual words in the compond word, but rather the words are blended together in a way that makes a totally new and very rare
Greek word, while one cannot even hear the actual small words within the compound word as it is spoken!
>
> I have also noticed some places where the ruff breathing marks quite obviously are not consistent and correct, and which also
messes up the pronunciation.
>
> Another difficult issue about Greek is that some words seem to be spelled differently at different places, making one wonder
whether in old times the word was pronounced the same, even when spelled differently, or if it was also pronounced in different
ways.
>
> I believe another reason learning Koine Greek is so difficult is 
> because much of the Koine Greek education system focuses on very 
> technical and complicated grammar, rather than a hands on and real 
> life experience with the words and language.  I believe more emphasis 
> needs to be placed on learning Greek root words and the many related 
> forms of the word.  More emphasis also needs to be placed in showing 
> the relation between the Greek words and the English.  In learning a 
> language one obviously must get very familiar with the words and the 
> various ways they are used.  Language largely must become 
> subconscious.  Too much technical grammar can distract one from really 
> learning the language.  The following was written by someone 
> struggling with very technical grammar;
>
> Hi guys
> "I started on verbs, Mounce holds off verbs until  you get the noun 
> system down, 15 chapters in he starts the Verbs. I am at  chapter 21 and I'm getting punch drunk, excuse the pun It's like I never
heard of these words before this and I'm getting blasted with words like mood voice, aspect, person, middle. Then on to Present
active, present passive, present middle, future active, future middle, deponents, Verbal  roots, future middle, liquid future
active, liquid future middle, imperfect active, imperfect middle passive.
> Next week Aorist active and aorist middle. Wow that was a mouth full.     Please tell me it will sink in! Or some pointers
wouldn't be too bad at this point."  End of quote.
>
> I believe two of the most powerful and useful tools to learn Greek would be, having a recording where a person reads a short
phrase of the Bible in English and then in Greek (while also at the same time having the Greek text appearing on a screen).  This
would be sort of like listening to a Greek speaker, with an interpreter.  The second useful tool would be to take well known songs
and insert appropriate Greek words in them instead of the English, so one could largely know what the Greek words mean because of
the melody of the song.  Yet neither of these two tools have really been developed as yet (although the one tool is being worked
on).  Yet both of these tools will need a good pronunciation.
>
> Yet even with all the difficulties about Koine Greek, I day by day am learning to read and understand it.  I can read many
Scriptures in the Septuagint quite easily, as well as in the New Testament.  Yet there are still verses that are very difficult for
me.
>
> God Bless
> Amos Bender
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek B-Greek mailing list 
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org 
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 13:31:22 -0800 (PST)
From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
To: bendersa at earthlink.net, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <20061030213122.59227.qmail at web38501.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ascii

I'm sure that Randall has a good point in emphasizing the need to use an approach which involves all of the senses in learning a
language, but I'm very far from thinking that lacking certain elements makes for difficult learning.  What I have generally found in
cases where someone complains about the difficulty of something is simply that they are unwilling to make the effort required, not
that it is supremely difficult.  Learning a language -- any language whether ancient or modern -- is not accomplished without
effort.  You cannot go sit under the tree of learning and expect the fruit thereof to  simply fall into your lap.  As regards being
confronted with words like " mood voice, aspect, person, middle" I would suggest reading the text of any grammar you happen to
choose.  These will generally define them for you.  Learn them as you would the definition of any English word.
 
george
gfsomsel
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Amos Bender <bendersa at earthlink.net>
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:28:00 PM
Subject: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek


Amos Bender
bendersa at earthlink.net
EarthLink Revolves Around You.

Difficulties of Learning Koine Greek,

Although the following might sound sort of wild, just think about it and see what you think.  I believe one very big reason Koine
Greek is so difficult to learn is because there is no solid and good pronunciation for it.  I am even afraid some markings about the
Greek text, and some rules of Greek pronunciation are not appropriate, and actually distort and destroy the real pronunciation.   

I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is very improper, since accent marks are not consistent on the different forms of the same
word.  Rather when a particular Greek word has a different form or ending, the accent often is moved to a different syllable of the
word making the word largely sound like a totally different word.    

I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is also very improper, because compound words are not sufficiently pronounced as the
individual words in the compond word, but rather the words are blended together in a way that makes a totally new and very rare
Greek word, while one cannot even hear the actual small words within the compound word as it is spoken!  

I have also noticed some places where the ruff breathing marks quite obviously are not consistent and correct, and which also messes
up the pronunciation.  

Another difficult issue about Greek is that some words seem to be spelled differently at different places, making one wonder whether
in old times the word was pronounced the same, even when spelled differently, or if it was also pronounced in different ways.  

I believe another reason learning Koine Greek is so difficult is because much of the Koine Greek education system focuses on very
technical and complicated grammar, rather than a hands on and real life experience with the words and language.  I believe more
emphasis needs to be placed on learning Greek root words and the many related forms of the word.  More emphasis also needs to be
placed in showing the relation between the Greek words and the English.  In learning a language one obviously must get very familiar
with the words and the various ways they are used.  Language largely must become subconscious.  Too much technical grammar can
distract one from really learning the language.  The following was written by someone struggling with very technical grammar;  

Hi guys
"I started on verbs, Mounce holds off verbs until  you get the noun system down, 15 chapters in he starts the Verbs. I am at
chapter 21 and I'm getting punch drunk, excuse the pun It's like I never heard of these words before this and I'm getting blasted
with words like mood voice, aspect, person, middle. Then on to Present active, present passive, present middle, future active,
future middle, deponents, Verbal  roots, future middle, liquid future active, liquid future middle, imperfect active, imperfect
middle passive.
Next week Aorist active and aorist middle. Wow that was a mouth full.     Please tell me it will sink in! Or some pointers wouldn't
be too bad at this point."  End of quote.

I believe two of the most powerful and useful tools to learn Greek would be, having a recording where a person reads a short phrase
of the Bible in English and then in Greek (while also at the same time having the Greek text appearing on a screen).  This would be
sort of like listening to a Greek speaker, with an interpreter.  The second useful tool would be to take well known songs and insert
appropriate Greek words in them instead of the English, so one could largely know what the Greek words mean because of the melody of
the song.  Yet neither of these two tools have really been developed as yet (although the one tool is being worked on).  Yet both of
these tools will need a good pronunciation.   

Yet even with all the difficulties about Koine Greek, I day by day am learning to read and understand it.  I can read many
Scriptures in the Septuagint quite easily, as well as in the New Testament.  Yet there are still verses that are very difficult for
me.  

God Bless
Amos Bender
---
B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek



------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 17:12:05 -0500
From: "James Spinti" <JSpinti at Eisenbrauns.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID:
	<2FC463E6B2073B4D998C93A858C0D4764C8EFD at HPLH301.ane.eisenbrauns.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

If you are looking for a good companion for learning English so you can learn Greek, try this:

"Grammatical Concepts 101 for Biblical Greek:
Learning Biblical Greek Grammatical Concepts through English Grammar"
by Gary A. Long
Hendrickson Publishers, 2006
239 pages, English, Paper
ISBN: 1565634063
List Price: $19.95 (cheaper online)

It was recently reviewed (favorably) here:
http://www.bookreviews.org/bookdetail.asp?TitleId=5227 

Gary also wrote a similar one for Biblical Hebrew. 

HTH,
James


________________________________
James Spinti
Marketing Director, Book Sales Division
Eisenbrauns, Good books for over 30 years Specializing in Ancient Near Eastern and Biblical Studies jspinti at eisenbrauns dot com
Web: http://www.eisenbrauns.com
Phone: 574-269-2011 ext 226
Fax: 574-269-6788 

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org 
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F 
> Somsel
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 4:31 PM
> To: bendersa at earthlink.net; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
> 
> 
> I'm sure that Randall has a good point in emphasizing the need to use 
> an approach which involves all of the senses in learning a language, 
> but I'm very far from thinking that lacking certain elements makes for 
> difficult learning.  What I have generally found in cases where 
> someone complains about the difficulty of something is simply that 
> they are unwilling to make the effort required, not that it is 
> supremely difficult.  Learning a language -- any language whether 
> ancient or modern -- is not accomplished without effort.  You cannot 
> go sit under the tree of learning and expect the fruit thereof to  
> simply fall into your lap.  As regards being confronted with words 
> like " mood voice, aspect, person, middle" I would suggest reading the 
> text of any grammar you happen to choose.  These will generally define 
> them for you.
> Learn them as you would the definition of any English word.
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Amos Bender <bendersa at earthlink.net>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 2:28:00 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
> 
> 
> Amos Bender
> bendersa at earthlink.net
> EarthLink Revolves Around You.
> 
> Difficulties of Learning Koine Greek,
<snip> 
> Hi guys
> "I started on verbs, Mounce holds off verbs until  you get the noun 
> system down, 15 chapters in he starts the Verbs. I am at  chapter 21 
> and I'm getting punch drunk, excuse the pun It's like I never heard of 
> these words before this and I'm getting blasted with words like mood 
> voice, aspect, person, middle. Then on to Present active, present 
> passive, present middle, future active, future middle, deponents, 
> Verbal roots, future middle, liquid future active, liquid future 
> middle, imperfect active, imperfect middle passive.
> Next week Aorist active and aorist middle. Wow that was a 
> mouth full.     Please tell me it will sink in! Or some 
> pointers wouldn't be too bad at this point."  End of quote.
<snip> 


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 10:09:19 +1100 (AUS Eastern Standard Time)
From: "Kevin Riley" <klriley at alphalink.com.au>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <4546861B.000003.03764 at YOUR-A9279112E3>
Content-Type: Text/Plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"

 The way Greek works is very similar to the way many other languages work - including moving accents, pronouncing compound words
differently to the individual words which make it up, and changes in spelling and pronunciation
  In fact, the same complaints can be made about English.  Whether or not these things cause you problems, that is the way Greek is,
so you have to find a way to learn it and then you will find they don't bother you.  Greek could be taught better - or at least
differently - but I suspect that no matter how it is taught, a significant number of students will find that they would learn better
if a different method was used.  A sad truth about education is that there is no one way that works well for everyone.
 
Kevin Riley
 
-------Original Message------- 
 
From: Amos Bender
Date: 31/10/2006 6:28:18 AM 
 
Difficulties of Learning Koine Greek, 
 
Although the following might sound sort of wild, just think about it and see what you think. I believe one very big reason Koine
Greek is so difficult to learn is because there is no solid and good pronunciation for it. I am even afraid some markings about the
Greek text, and some rules of Greek pronunciation are not appropriate, and actually distort and destroy the real pronunciation. 
 
I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is very improper, since accent marks are not consistent on the different forms of the same
word. Rather when a particular Greek word has a different form or ending, the accent often is moved to a different syllable of the
word making the word largely sound like a totally different word. 
 
I believe today's pronunciation of Greek is also very improper, because compound words are not sufficiently pronounced as the
individual words in the compond word, but rather the words are blended together in a way that makes a totally new and very rare
Greek word, while one cannot even hear the actual small words within the compound word as it is spoken! 
 
I have also noticed some places where the ruff breathing marks quite obviously are not consistent and correct, and which also messes
up the pronunciation. 
 
Another difficult issue about Greek is that some words seem to be spelled differently at different places, making one wonder whether
in old times the word was pronounced the same, even when spelled differently, or if it was also pronounced in different ways. 
 
I believe another reason learning Koine Greek is so difficult is because much of the Koine Greek education system focuses on very
technical and complicated grammar, rather than a hands on and real life experience with the words and language. I believe more
emphasis needs to be placed on learning Greek root words and the many related forms of the word. More emphasis also needs to be
placed in showing the relation between the Greek words and the English. In learning a language one obviously must get very familiar
with the words and the various ways they are used. Language largely must become subconscious. Too much technical grammar can
distract one from really learning the language. The following was written by someone struggling with very technical grammar; 
 
Hi guys
"I started on verbs, Mounce holds off verbs until you get the noun system down, 15 chapters in he starts the Verbs. I am at chapter
21 and I'm getting punch drunk, excuse the pun It's like I never heard of these words before this and I'm getting blasted with words
like mood voice, aspect, person, middle. Then on to Present active, present passive, present middle, future active, future middle,
deponents, Verbal roots, future middle, liquid future active, liquid future middle, imperfect active, imperfect middle passive. 
Next week Aorist active and aorist middle. Wow that was a mouth full. Please tell me it will sink in! Or some pointers wouldn't be
too bad at this point.
 End of quote. 
 
I believe two of the most powerful and useful tools to learn Greek would be, having a recording where a person reads a short phrase
of the Bible in English and then in Greek (while also at the same time having the Greek text appearing on a screen). This would be
sort of like listening to a Greek speaker, with an interpreter. The second useful tool would be to take well known songs and insert
appropriate Greek words in them instead of the English, so one could largely know what the Greek words mean because of the melody of
the song. Yet neither of these two tools have really been developed as yet (although the one tool is being worked on). Yet both of
these tools will need a good pronunciation. 
 
Yet even with all the difficulties about Koine Greek, I day by day am learning to read and understand it. I can read many Scriptures
in the Septuagint quite easily, as well as in the New Testament. Yet there are still verses that are very difficult for me. 
 
God Bless
Amos Bender
---
B-Greek home page: http://metalab.unc.edu/bgreek B-Greek mailing list B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek 
 
 
--
No virus found in this incoming message. 
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 27/10/2006 
 


------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 23:54:36 +0000
From: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
Subject: [B-Greek] future perfects in   Matth. 18:18
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY15-F21CAA1A050836901F501838BFA0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Matthew 18:18
AMHN LEGW hUMIN, hOSA EAN DHSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI DEDEMENA EN OURANWi, KAI 
hOSA EAN LUSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI LELUMENA EN OURANWi.

My question is concerning the time relationship between the two subjunctives 
(DHSHTE, LUSHTE) and the corresponding future perfects ( ESTAI DEDEMENA, 
ESTAI LELUMENA .)
Do these tenses say anything about when the binding in heaven occurrs in 
relation to when the binding took place on earth?
A different way of asking the same thing; When the Church binds something on 
earth, does Christ promise that this decision will be (future) backed up in 
heaven, or is he saying that the binding on earth (if it is done biblicaly 
of course) is in agreement with what God has already decided (perfect.)
I guess the difference can be expressed by translating the future perfect 
either as ...will be bound in heaven... or ...will have already been bound 
in heaven...
Eagerly looking forward to a reply:
Bert de Haan
_________________




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:33:06 -0500
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future perfects in   Matth. 18:18
To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <192A2F55-DC04-4161-8F01-CF5B70265CD2 at artsci.wustl.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Oct 30, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Bert de Haan wrote:

> Matthew 18:18
> AMHN LEGW hUMIN, hOSA EAN DHSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI DEDEMENA EN  
> OURANWi, KAI
> hOSA EAN LUSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI LELUMENA EN OURANWi.
>
> My question is concerning the time relationship between the two  
> subjunctives
> (DHSHTE, LUSHTE) and the corresponding future perfects ( ESTAI  
> DEDEMENA,
> ESTAI LELUMENA .)
> Do these tenses say anything about when the binding in heaven  
> occurrs in
> relation to when the binding took place on earth?
> A different way of asking the same thing; When the Church binds  
> something on
> earth, does Christ promise that this decision will be (future)  
> backed up in
> heaven, or is he saying that the binding on earth (if it is done  
> biblicaly
> of course) is in agreement with what God has already decided  
> (perfect.)
> I guess the difference can be expressed by translating the future  
> perfect
> either as ...will be bound in heaven... or ...will have already  
> been bound
> in heaven...

See the archives for July 16-22, 1998 "A Question on Mathew 18.18"
and Nov 19-20, 1998 "Estai dedemena (Mt. 18:18)"


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 02:18:00 +0000
From: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future perfects in Matth. 18:18
To: cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <BAY15-F68CD391537504555CAF2D8BF90 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed




>From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>To: Bert de Haan <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>CC: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] future perfects in   Matth. 18:18
>Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:33:06 -0500
>
>
>On Oct 30, 2006, at 6:54 PM, Bert de Haan wrote:
>
>>Matthew 18:18
>>AMHN LEGW hUMIN, hOSA EAN DHSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI DEDEMENA EN  OURANWi, 
>>KAI
>>hOSA EAN LUSHTE EPI THS GHS ESTAI LELUMENA EN OURANWi.
>>
>>My question is concerning the time relationship between the two  
>>subjunctives
>>(DHSHTE, LUSHTE) and the corresponding future perfects ( ESTAI  DEDEMENA,
>>ESTAI LELUMENA .)
>>Do these tenses say anything about when the binding in heaven  occurrs in
>>relation to when the binding took place on earth?
>>A different way of asking the same thing; When the Church binds  something 
>>on
>>earth, does Christ promise that this decision will be (future)  backed up 
>>in
>>heaven, or is he saying that the binding on earth (if it is done  
>>biblicaly
>>of course) is in agreement with what God has already decided  (perfect.)
>>I guess the difference can be expressed by translating the future  perfect
>>either as ...will be bound in heaven... or ...will have already  been 
>>bound
>>in heaven...
>
>See the archives for July 16-22, 1998 "A Question on Mathew 18.18"
>and Nov 19-20, 1998 "Estai dedemena (Mt. 18:18)"
>
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
>cwconrad2 at mac.com
>WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
>


Thanks.  That is exactly what I was looking for. My apologies for not 
checking the archives first.  It was not lazyness but forgetfulness.
BTW, instead of July 16-22 1998 it should read Aug. 16-22 1998.

Bert de Haan.




------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 19:03:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Eddie Mishoe <edmishoe at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Acts 17:26-27
To: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>,	greek
	<b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <20061031030341.21034.qmail at web53805.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Elizabeth: 

On this...

--- Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
wrote:

> ACTS 17:26 EPOIHSEN TE EX hENOS PAN EQNOS ANQRWPWN
> KATOIKEIN EPI  
> PANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS, hORISAS PROSTETAGMENOUS
> KAIROUS KAI TAS  
> hOROQESIAS THS KATOIKIAS AUTWN  27 ZHTEIN TON QEON,
> EI ARA GE  
> YHLAFHSEIAN AUTON KAI hEUROIEN, KAI GE OU MAKRAN APO
> hENOS hEKASTOU  
> hHMWN hUPARCONTA.
> 
> Culy & Parsons state that ZHTEIN TON QEON ... is in
> apposition to  
> KATOIKEIN EPI PANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS. Finding this
> puzzling I looked  
> up appositive/apposition in two dictionaries of
> linguistics R.L.Trask  
> and David Crystal. Trask limited apposition to noun
> phrases but David  
> Crystal did not, he defined it as any two
> constituents at the same  
> grammatical level which are co-referential.
> 
> I was under the mistaken impression that second
> constituent in some  
> way needed to qualify or give further explanation
> about the first  
> constituent. 


Then you say...

Two constituents can be co-referential
> without the  
> second one qualifying the first.

How so?


Eddie Mishoe
Pastor

__________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:48:19 -0800
From: Elizabeth Kline <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Acts 17:26-27
To: greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <C1F49944-B26C-46E6-909F-AA2169B6A7F4 at earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed

On Oct 30, 2006, at 7:03 PM, Eddie Mishoe wrote:
> Then you say...
>
> Two constituents can be co-referential
>> without the
>> second one qualifying the first.
>
> How so?


Eddie,

That is in fact what my question was about. How can this be?

Culy & Parsons state that ZHTEIN TON QEON ... is in a second purpose  
clause of EPOIHSEN in apposition to KATOIKEIN EPI PANTOS PROSWPOU THS  
GHS.

David Crystal (Dict. Ling. & Phon. 4th ed) apposition(al) ... a  
sequence of units which are constituents at the same grammatical  
level, and which have identity or similarity of reference.

Crystal then gives an example "John Smith, the butcher, came in" with  
two noun phrases and notes that they have the same syntactic function  
so that either can be eliminated without breaking down the structure  
of the clause.

In what sense do the two "purpose clauses" (?) ZHTEIN TON QEON ...  
and KATOIKEIN EPI PANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS have the same referent? Are  
we calling EPOIHSEN the referent? I cannot see how the second purpose  
clause qualifies or gives more information about the first purpose  
clause. They both point back to EPOIHSEN.

My best guess, and it is only a guess, is that Culy & Parsons are  
using the term apposition here to tell us that in a generative  
parsing tree the two "purpose clauses" are at the same level and are  
attached to the same higher level constituent EPOIHSEN.

Elizabeth Kline


On Oct 30, 2006, at 8:33 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:

> ACTS 17:26 EPOIHSEN TE EX hENOS PAN EQNOS ANQRWPWN KATOIKEIN EPI
> PANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS, hORISAS PROSTETAGMENOUS KAIROUS KAI TAS
> hOROQESIAS THS KATOIKIAS AUTWN  27 ZHTEIN TON QEON, EI ARA GE
> YHLAFHSEIAN AUTON KAI hEUROIEN, KAI GE OU MAKRAN APO hENOS hEKASTOU
> hHMWN hUPARCONTA.
>
> Culy & Parsons state that ZHTEIN TON QEON ... is in apposition to
> KATOIKEIN EPI PANTOS PROSWPOU THS GHS. Finding this puzzling I looked
> up appositive/apposition in two dictionaries of linguistics R.L.Trask
> and David Crystal. Trask limited apposition to noun phrases but David
> Crystal did not, he defined it as any two constituents at the same
> grammatical level which are co-referential.
>
> I was under the mistaken impression that second constituent in some
> way needed to qualify or give further explanation about the first
> constituent. Two constituents can be co-referential without the
> second one qualifying the first.
>











------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 05:59:52 -0500
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: [B-Greek] Genitive Absolute - a fresh look
To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5AAB3581-03BA-4569-995B-4A07AC4C1EA1 at artsci.wustl.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=MACINTOSH;	delsp=yes;	format=flowed

A paper by on genitive absolute constructions in NT Koine Greek, "The  
'Genitive Absolute' in New Testament/Hellenistic Greek: A Proposal  
for Clearer Understanding" has appeared in the newly accessible  
Volume 3 of Journal of Greek and Roman Christianity and Judaism at

http://divinity.mcmaster.ca/jgrchj/volume3

Her conclusion: ?My study of the use of Genitive Constructions in the  
New Testament has demonstrated that being `absolute? is not one of  
their essential characteristics. Thus, there is no need to explain  
why they are often not absolute. They are adverbial constructions,  
and their main uses in narrative are (1) to signal important prior  
background information that provides necessary context for the  
action, and (2) to provide cohesion. Another relatively common use,  
usually in exposition, is (3) to give accompanying con?rming  
circumstances. They have various other adverbial functions as they  
combine the work of circumstantial participle and genitive adverbial  
phrase. How frequently they are used may in some cases be linked to  
regional dialect or writing conventions (for example, in the petition  
form). When Genitive Constructions are seen in this way, many  
passages that seemed to be grammatical anomalies can be understood as  
following understandable principles.?

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 06:14:36 -0500
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Genitive Absolute - a fresh look
To: B-Greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <5F6097E4-ABB8-42F3-A169-52276F357AF5 at artsci.wustl.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=MACINTOSH; delsp=yes; format=flowed

Er ... to fill in the blank space ...

On Oct 31, 2006, at 5:59 AM, Carl W. Conrad wrote:

> A paper by

Lois K. Fuller

> on genitive absolute constructions in NT Koine Greek, "The  
> 'Genitive Absolute' in New Testament/Hellenistic Greek: A Proposal  
> for Clearer Understanding" has appeared in the newly accessible  
> Volume 3 of Journal of Greek and Roman Christianity and Judaism at
>
> http://divinity.mcmaster.ca/jgrchj/volume3
>
> Her conclusion: ?My study of the use of Genitive Constructions in  
> the New Testament has demonstrated that being `absolute? is not one  
> of their essential characteristics. Thus, there is no need to  
> explain why they are often not absolute. They are adverbial  
> constructions, and their main uses in narrative are (1) to signal  
> important prior background information that provides necessary  
> context for the action, and (2) to provide cohesion. Another  
> relatively common use, usually in exposition, is (3) to give  
> accompanying con?rming circumstances. They have various other  
> adverbial functions as they combine the work of circumstantial  
> participle and genitive adverbial phrase. How frequently they are  
> used may in some cases be linked to regional dialect or writing  
> conventions (for example, in the petition form). When Genitive  
> Constructions are seen in this way, many passages that seemed to be  
> grammatical anomalies can be understood as following understandable  
> principles.?

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




------------------------------

Message: 13
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:59:30 -0000
From: "Gerry" <Mishkan at Blueyonder.co.uk>
Subject: [B-Greek] Missing letters in Funk's Grammar
To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Message-ID: <000601c6fce4$05db77d0$b54a2e52 at yourc94f920e24>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="iso-8859-1"

I have been trying to view Funk's Grammar online, but whilst I can see some Greek characters, there are some that are replaced with
missing character glyphs i.e. small square boxes.
Can anyone enlighen me on this?

Gerry Todd

------------------------------

Message: 14
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 07:38:37 -0500
From: "Carl W. Conrad" <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Missing letters in Funk's Grammar
To: Gerry <Mishkan at Blueyonder.co.uk>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <94ADF4B7-11F9-45ED-BA34-7C75EFE246B4 at artsci.wustl.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed


On Oct 31, 2006, at 6:59 AM, Gerry wrote:

> I have been trying to view Funk's Grammar online, but whilst I can  
> see some Greek characters, there are some that are replaced with  
> missing character glyphs i.e. small square boxes.
> Can anyone enlighen me on this?

You must have your browser's text encoding set on Unicode (UTF-8); I  
think that's the problem. I'm having no problem with Firefox 2.0 on  
Mac OSX 10.4.8 and text encoding set to UTF-8.


Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/




------------------------------

Message: 15
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:18:46 -0500
From: Anthony Buzzard <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Difficulties of Learning Greek
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20061031091809.024d96a8 at mindspring.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

Amos, just a brief comment. I have taught NT Greek for many years, 
using the modern pronunciation and using the Spiros Zodhiates (a 
native Greek) recording of the NT as backup. Reading is very easy 
although spelling (less important at least for the beginner) is hard, 
because so many vowels and diphthongs make the sound ee.
As to the language itself, I have found bright students do not find 
it too hard. Certainly if one has done some German before it is not 
too demanding,
Anthony Buzzard, Atlanta Bible College

Visit our website at www.restorationfellowship.org 



------------------------------

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