[B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Sep 1 14:25:31 EDT 2006


You are reasoning from English usage to Greek usage which is an invalid method (and very hazardous to the truth).  Furthermore, you are confusing usage in the Roman Empire with the established usage in Greek language and literature.  
   
  _________
  

Wounded Ego <woundedegomusic at gmail.com> wrote:
  I have not investigated terms of honor and it may be a useful doctorate
dissertation for someone, but if I am not mistaken, terms that we tend to
view as merely showing vague respect are often imbued with very precise
meaning. For example, a "gentleman" was originally, I believe, intended to
indicate that the man owned land (I guess rather than worked it himself as a
serf or slave). A "lord" in English usage related to one who had authority
over one or more others.

Sarah also referred to Abraham as "KURIE":

1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord [KURION]: whose
daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any
amazement.

If I am not mistaken, the Roman emperor commandeered this as his title. I am
inclined to think that in most contexts, Jesus being called "lord" would be
considered treasonous.

Matthew 8:
5 ¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a
centurion [Roman leader of 100 men, I think], beseeching him,
6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously
tormented.
7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord [KURIE], I am not worthy that thou
shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall
be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to
this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my
servant, Do this, and he doeth it.

William Ross
VGB, Argentina




-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of yancywsmith
Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:54 PM
To: James Becknell
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios

James,
Many languages employ honorific titles of respect that may be 
indiscriminately applied to people or gods or God. The important 
thing is that the honorific ascribes a certain status to the 
addressee, which may be adjusted in the course of a conversation. In 
Mediterranean cultures, such honorifics were a common part of 
appropriate interpersonal behavior and the use of honorifics was a 
part of daily life in which status was considered very important. In 
this case the point of the story in John hinges upon the woman at the 
well NOT knowing who that Jesus is the messiah until much farther 
into the conversation. In Greek "KURIOS" is one such honorific, and 
in archaic English "Lord" is another. Usage has shifted to to the use 
of "mister" and "sir" for men and "Lord" for people of noble status, 
e.g. in England. So, "sir, lord, Lord, mister" are all acceptable 
glosses of KURIOS, one example in the Greek NT is:
Mat 13:27. For a fuller listing, see BDAG. Of course it has a broader 
semantic range than this, e.g.
It is used of a husband as "lord, master, mister" (Sarah to Abraham) in
1 Pet 3:6 (not as, "you better shape up, mister" !).
Ex 22:7 it refers to "head" of a household KURIOS, -A, -ON as an 
adjective is used in the LXX as "valid, lawful, established, 
important" (1 Mac8:30; 2 Mac 8:30; 4 Mac 1:19).


Yancy Smith
yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
5636 Wedgworth Rd.
Fort Worth, TX 76133
817-361-7565




On Sep 1, 2006, at 11:18 AM, James Becknell wrote:

> I am interested to know if anyone understands why kurios is 
> rendered as
> sir in John 4:11? I understand its use as a title for the purpose of
> formal address, but I was wondering how it is concluded that the
> Samaritan woman is not referring to Jesus as lord, but as sir? Are
> there any other places where this is brought out into English as sir?
>
>
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george
gfsomsel
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