[B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios

William Ross woundedegomusic at gmail.com
Fri Sep 1 15:27:18 EDT 2006


Actually, my point is illustrated in English usage, but is, as I
understand it, historical. The Caesar allowed all manner of freedom of
relgion in his empire but required in addtion that he be confessed as
KURIOS by all of his subjects (accompanied by the burning of incense).
The centurion kneeled and confessed that Jesus was lord. Though we
don't see him burning insence, I think that here and in Phil 2, the
image is quite effective: "bow and confess."

Also, Sara did not just say "Mister" to Abraham - I would not think
so, anyway. She is commended as acknowledging his authority.

The context of the centurion's address is clearly about authority - "I
too am a man of authority..."

It is an assumption, difficult to prove, that the woman at the well
did not intend to acknowledge Jesus as a man of some kind of
authority. I am not saying that she wasn't just being polite, only
that there is nothing in the grammar that requires it so. It is an
interpretive issue.

I am inclined, personally, to see this as meant more as an indicator
of his faith than of her good manners as that is more the subject of
this gospel.

But, grammatically, lexically - either would work, I would think.

William Ross
VGB, Argentina




On 9/1/06, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> You are reasoning from English usage to Greek usage which is an invalid
> method (and very hazardous to the truth).  Furthermore, you are confusing
> usage in the Roman Empire with the established usage in Greek language and
> literature.
>
> _________
>
>
> Wounded Ego <woundedegomusic at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have not investigated terms of honor and it may be a useful doctorate
> dissertation for someone, but if I am not mistaken, terms that we tend to
> view as merely showing vague respect are often imbued with very precise
> meaning. For example, a "gentleman" was originally, I believe, intended to
> indicate that the man owned land (I guess rather than worked it himself as a
> serf or slave). A "lord" in English usage related to one who had authority
> over one or more others.
>
> Sarah also referred to Abraham as "KURIE":
>
> 1Pe 3:6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord [KURION]: whose
> daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any
> amazement.
>
> If I am not mistaken, the Roman emperor commandeered this as his title. I am
> inclined to think that in most contexts, Jesus being called "lord" would be
> considered treasonous.
>
> Matthew 8:
> 5 ¶ And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a
> centurion [Roman leader of 100 men, I think], beseeching him,
> 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously
> tormented.
> 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
> 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord [KURIE], I am not worthy that thou
> shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall
> be healed.
> 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to
> this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my
> servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
>
> William Ross
> VGB, Argentina
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of
> yancywsmith
> Sent: Friday, September 01, 2006 1:54 PM
> To: James Becknell
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Question Regarding John 4:11 kurios
>
> James,
> Many languages employ honorific titles of respect that may be
> indiscriminately applied to people or gods or God. The important
> thing is that the honorific ascribes a certain status to the
> addressee, which may be adjusted in the course of a conversation. In
> Mediterranean cultures, such honorifics were a common part of
> appropriate interpersonal behavior and the use of honorifics was a
> part of daily life in which status was considered very important. In
> this case the point of the story in John hinges upon the woman at the
> well NOT knowing who that Jesus is the messiah until much farther
> into the conversation. In Greek "KURIOS" is one such honorific, and
> in archaic English "Lord" is another. Usage has shifted to to the use
> of "mister" and "sir" for men and "Lord" for people of noble status,
> e.g. in England. So, "sir, lord, Lord, mister" are all acceptable
> glosses of KURIOS, one example in the Greek NT is:
> Mat 13:27. For a fuller listing, see BDAG. Of course it has a broader
> semantic range than this, e.g.
> It is used of a husband as "lord, master, mister" (Sarah to Abraham) in
> 1 Pet 3:6 (not as, "you better shape up, mister" !).
> Ex 22:7 it refers to "head" of a household KURIOS, -A, -ON as an
> adjective is used in the LXX as "valid, lawful, established,
> important" (1 Mac8:30; 2 Mac 8:30; 4 Mac 1:19).
>
>
> Yancy Smith
> yancywsmith at sbcglobal.net
> 5636 Wedgworth Rd.
> Fort Worth, TX 76133
> 817-361-7565
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2006, at 11:18 AM, James Becknell wrote:
>
> > I am interested to know if anyone understands why kurios is
> > rendered as
> > sir in John 4:11? I understand its use as a title for the purpose of
> > formal address, but I was wondering how it is concluded that the
> > Samaritan woman is not referring to Jesus as lord, but as sir? Are
> > there any other places where this is brought out into English as sir?
> >
> >
> > ---
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>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
> _________
>
> ________________________________
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>
>


-- 

William Ross
VGB, Argentina



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