[B-Greek] PNEUMATI THEOU: Meaning of Genitive
Jerry Reimer
Jerry at lsm.org
Wed Apr 18 12:47:01 EDT 2007
No. I am sorry, I do not quite see the point or, at least, all of the point. Could you please expand a little because I would like to see the point you are making?
I think my point was that there is no mark (inflection, form, letters, special suffixes or whatever morphological label one might use) to identify the nuance and that all that can be determined by form is that it is a genitive case word. Beyond that basic determination (that it is a genitive form) is when nuance decisions have to be made. It is difficult to see that the exegete who, having identified the form, does not move into some kind of subjectivity so as to eventually settle on a particular nuance. Even if he has done some sort of quantitative computer search or reaches out to something in the immediate context or remote context for nuance support, he is still operating out from a presupposition whatever confirmation procedure he may adopt.
I am open to learn from you. Thank-you for responding.
Jerry Reimer
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Millier [mailto:deborahmillier at yahoo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:38 PM
To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: [B-Greek] PNEUMATI THEOU: Meaning of Genitive
Hi B-Greek Listers!
Jerry Reimer wrote:
> It is the expositor/exegete's decision
> as to what the function of the genitive
> case is in any given context. Thus,
> eventually, it is largely if not entirely
> a subjective matter and the theological
> agenda of the translator will generally
> come through.
Hi Jerry. Your comments only speak to the matter of
distinguishing between, say, a genitive of possession
and/or a genitive of origin. Etc. I disagree that even
that is a primarily subjective matter, although I
agree that subjectivity may come into play in
especially nuanced distinctions.
However, as far as the logic of language is concerned,
it is safe to say that ALL genitives AUTOMATICALLY
distinguish between one thing and
another(s), or else there would be no point of
reference/comparison. All genitives basically fall
into this formula: Y of X. Therefore Y is in
relationship to X and cannot logically be exactly the
same thing.
Do you see the point now?
George Somsel wrote:
> If one maintains that the Spirit here
> must be distinct from God, how
> then would he understand 1 Cor 2.11
>
> TIS GAR OIDEN ANQRWPWN TA TOU ANQRWPOU
> EI MN TO PNEUMA TOU ANQRWPOU TO EN AUTWi
Hi George. I am pretty sure from your past postings
that you believe that the Bible generally purports
some sort of distinction between the Spirit and God
(hence "PNEUMATI THEOU"). In other words PNEUMATI
THEOU does not mean "The Spirit Who is It/Himself
God."
What you may have [mis]understood from Laurence's
initial post on this thread is that the other party in
his dialog (me) was claiming that the Spirit is not
Deity or organically related to God-proper. That is
not at all my claim. Actually, in Laurence's and my
dialog, I am claiming some sort of a distinction as in
the form of a subdivision of..., a component of...,
that which is possessed by..., etc. (Typical genitive
stuff.) But not two completly different entities
without organic relation to each other. This is a
linguistic matter more than a theological one.
So, going back to your (George's) illustration of a
person's hand and the person, one could say that the
hand is a component of the person. But if the hand
were removed, the person would not cease to exist.
Therefore, the hand (Y) is in relationship to the
person (X), but not exactly the person. It is the hand
*of* the person, the Y *of* the X, that is in view.
Would you agree in essence with that formulation,
George?
Shalom from Manila,
--Michael Millier
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