[B-Greek] John 3:19 strange word order?

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Tue Aug 21 06:24:27 EDT 2007


On Aug 21, 2007, at 2:10 AM, Bert de Haan wrote:

> Thank you Kelton.  I have no problem with the sg. verb and pl. neuter
> subject but I cannot recall seeing the verb before the subject and  
> predicate
> nominative instead of between them or after both.  Also, the  
> genitive in
> front of TA ERGA is okay but PONHRA seperating AUTWN and TA ERGA  
> sure caused
> a hickup as I read this verse.

Well,PONHRA is clearly predicative. If there's anything strange about  
this word-order (and the text as it stands certainly doesn't seem  
unintelligible), it's the "fronted" HN ; a form of EIMI is ordinarily  
fronted when it bears an existential sense rather than a copulative  
sense as here. I do think one might more likely expect: HN GAR PONHRA  
TA ERGA AUTWN or PONHRA GAR HN TA ERGA AUTWN. The effect of the word- 
order as it stands in the Johannine text is something like, "Theirs,  
after all, were evil -- their works, that is."

Carl W. Conrad

>> From: kgraham0938 at comcast.net
>> To: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 3:19 strange word order?
>> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2007 03:35:38 +0000
>>
>> Hey Bert.  Well I can see your why you would struggle with this.   
>> PONHPA is
>> in the first predicate position.  Which is adjective-article-noun,  
>> the
>> second predicate position would be article-noun-adjective.  Since  
>> this is
>> in the predicate position it should be "the works are evil."  The  
>> genitve
>> being in front TA ERGA is not uncommon in Greek.  But the thing  
>> that I
>> would be careful of is that even though HN here is singular;  
>> neuter plurals
>> can take singular verbs.
>> --
>> Kelton Graham
>> KGRAHAM0938 at comcast.net
>>
>> -------------- Original message --------------
>> From: "Bert de Haan" <b_dehaan at sympatico.ca>
>>
>>> John 3:19 is as follows: hAUTE DE ESTIN hH KRISIS TO FWS ELHLUQEN  
>>> EIS
>> TON
>>> KOSMON KAI HGAPHSAN hOI ANQRWPOI MALLON TO SKOTOS H TO FWS; HN  
>>> GAR AUTWN
>>> PONHRA TA ERGA.
>>> It is the last part (HN GAR AUTWN PONHRA TA ERGA)that is the  
>>> cause of
>> some
>>> trouble for me. The word order seems strange. Especially HN at the
>> beginning
>>> of the sentence and AUTWN removed from TA ERGA threw me for a loop.
>> PONHRA
>>> GAR HN TA ERGA AUTWN would be what I would consider "normal." Is  
>>> there
>> any
>>> thing strange about the way the second part of John 3:19 is  
>>> written or
>> is it
>>> just my lack of experience with Greek that makes it appear that  
>>> way to
>> me?
>>> Thank you,
>>> Bert de Haan.
>>>
>>>
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>
>
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