[B-Greek] partitive genitive as subject/object
Iver Larsen
iver_larsen at sil.org
Sat Feb 10 03:30:19 EST 2007
>>> JOHN 6:11 ELABEN OUN TOUS ARTOUS hO IHSOUS KAI EUCARISTHSAS DIEDWKEN
>>> TOIS ANAKEIMENOIS hOMOIWS KAI EK TWN OYARIWN hOSON HQELON.
>>
EK:
> Westcott (1John p153) cites Jn 1:16 & Jn 6:11 as examples that
> illustrate the use of EK in 1JN 4:13. Yes it is different which is
> why I took an interest in it. Oun was marveling over the missing
> direct object in 1JN 4:13 but here we have more than just a missing
> object, we have a clause introduced by hOMOIWS KAI which is made of
> nothing but EK TWN OYARIWN. There is more than one way to parse this
> but I would see hOSON HQELON as adverbial to DIEDWKE TOIS
> ANAKEIMENOIS.
>
Carl:
I have no problem with the notion of partitives as subject or object
of a verb; we see them in Homer; and I don't think there's anything
particularly Semitic about it: we see it in French: "Des amis sont
venus avec moi; ... les pêches dont j'ai mangé hier soir ..." But it
seems to me that the structure of the sentence in John 6:11 is highly
elliptical. I'd formulate it thus
ELABEN OUN TOUS ARTOUS hO IHSOUS KAI EUCARISTHSAS DIEDWKEN TOIS
ANAKEIMENOIS, hOMOIWS KAI EK TWN OYARIWN (ELABEN TOSOUTON) hOSON
HQELON (KAI EUCARISTHSAS DIEDWKEN TOIS ANAKEIMENOIS).
I just think that in this instance there's an implicit quantitative
pronoun upon which EK TWN OYARIWN hangs. Certainly it's a partitive
phrase in any case.
Iver:
Out of curiosity I looked at the usage of hOSOS and TOSOUTOS in the GNT. hOSOS occurs 110 times and
TOSOUTOS 20 times. TOSOUTOS seems to have a strong comparative as well as demonstrative force: "SO
much" in terms of quality or quantity. It is above expectation. Just one example:
Matt 15:33 POQEN hHMIN ...ARTOI TOSOUTOI hWSTE CORTASAI OCLON TOSOUTON
(From where can we get.. so much bread that (it is possible) to feed such a great crowd.
(A long time ago we discussed on this list the interesting usage of hWSTE in the GNT, where it
implies a resulting event above expectation while hINA is used for common, everyday result or
purpose. John 3:16 is the most famous example.)
hOSOS is a relative comparison rather than a demonstrative comparison, and the comparison is derived
from the context. It is often connected to a verb of desire, e.g.
Matt 7:12 hOSA EAN QELHTE (as much as you might wish)
Matt 17:12 hOSA HQELHSAN (as much as they wanted)
Mrk 9:13 hOSA HQELON (as much as they were wanting)
Jhn 6:11 hOSON HQELON (as much as they were wanting) the neuter form of hOSON is adverbial usage.
Gal 6:12 hOSOI QELOUSIN...hOUTOI (as many as (they) want...these)
There are very few cases in the GNT where the two occur together in a correlative usage. I could
only find four instances:
Heb 1:4, 7:20-22, 10:25 and Rev 18:7.
I agree that there is a lot of ellipsis involved in John 6:11, but that is common in Greek, and it
is explicitly marked by hOMOIWS KAI as Elizabeth mentioned. I don't think we need to suggest an
implicit TOSOUTON, because I do not see in the context the idea "above expectation".
An alternative way of supplying the implicit words to produce an extremely redundant text might be:
ELABEN OUN TOUS ARTOUS hO IHSOUS KAI EUCARISTHSAS DIEDWKEN
TOIS ANAKEIMENOIS, hOMOIWS KAI (ELABEN TA OYARIA hO IHSOUS KAI EUCARISTHSAS DIEDWKEN TOIS
ANAKEIMENOIS TINA) EK TWN OYARIWN, hOSON HQELON.
Iver Larsen
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