[B-Greek] PNEUMA HO THEOS and similar expressions

Anthony Buzzard anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com
Tue Jun 26 17:46:34 EDT 2007


Charlie, no problem at all. I too read too quickly sometimes,
Anthony.

At 04:32 PM 6/26/2007, Charlie wrote:
>Anthony,
>
>It is I who should apologize. I simply did not read your note correctly and
>missed a few very important words. I'm sorry.
>
>Charles P. Arnold, Jr., Ph.D.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Anthony Buzzard" <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
>To: "Charlie" <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 4:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PNEUMA HO THEOS and similar expressions
>
>
> > Thanks, What I said is found in major commentaries?  The adjectival
> > sense of the noun in John.
> > Why is it so offensive?
> > What did I say that was grammatically impossible?
> > I am just reading Dr Colin Brown at Fuller: "to read John 1:1 as if
> > it said 'in the beginning was the Son' is patently wrong."
> > I thought that was helpful, as trying to sort out the meaning of
> > these passages.
> > Anthony.
> >
> >
> > At 03:52 PM 6/26/2007, you wrote:
> > >Anthony,
> > >
> > >I respectfully disagree with your theology. I suggest you leave theology
>out
> > >of this forum as the purpose of the mail list states. Theology arguments
> > >will not work here on b-greek.
> > >
> > >Charles P. Arnold, Jr., Ph.D.
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Anthony Buzzard" <anthonybuzzard at mindspring.com>
> > >To: <jerry at lsm.org>; "'Harold Holmyard'" <hholmyard3 at earthlink.net>;
> > ><b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 3:25 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PNEUMA HO THEOS and similar expressions
> > >
> > >
> > > > Jerry, I think you are right "God communicates via spirit." "God is
> > > > love" does not mean God is an emotion. "God is light" is not an
> > > > equation. It is qualititative.
> > > > The absence of the article suggests an adjectival sense as in "the
> > > > word was God." The word is fully expressive of God,."goddish"
> > > > The word was God certainly does not mean "the Son was God." If it did
> > > > we would have "in the beginning was the Son, Son was with God {the
> > > > Father]  and Son was the Father."
> > > > That would be wrong obviously.
> > > > Anthony.
> > > >
> > > > At 12:12 PM 6/26/2007, Jerry Austin Reimer wrote:
> > > > >Would it be correct to say that because pneuma is anarthrous it tends
> > >toward
> > > > >qualitative (adjectival) rather than count or even predicate
>substantive?
> > > > >God is pneumatic. God is spiritual. Seems versions (like NIV) are
>more on
> > > > >the side of predicate noun.
> > > > >
> > > > >Jerry Reimer
> > > > >
> > > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > > >From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > >[mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org]On Behalf Of Harold
>Holmyard
> > > > >Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 9:06 AM
> > > > >To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] PNEUMA HO THEOS and similar expressions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Dear Jonathan and Kramer,
> > > > > > OK, let me try to dredge my memory, and let the experts correct me
>or
> > > > > > fill in.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think there's two things going on here. When a subject and
> > >predicate,
> > > > > > both nouns, are joined by a form of ESTIN like this, the subject
> > > > > > normally has the article, the predicate does not.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In Greek, as in English, both the subject and the predicate are
> > > > > > nominative, so the cases do not distinguish subject from
>predicate.
> > > > > > Instead, the article is used to identify the subject: the noun
>with
> > >the
> > > > > > article is the subject, the noun without the article is the
>predicate.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that's the primary significance of the presence or absence
>of
> > > > > > the article in these constructions, but it's also true that the
> > > > > > predicate noun, in Greek or in English, often comes across as
> > > > > > qualitative - in your examples, God is not "a love" or "the love",
>God
> > > > > > is love. God is not "a light" or "the light", God is light. I
>remember
> > > > > > seeing similar examples where a particular person is not "a king"
>or
> > > > > > "the king", but simply king.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >HH: Right, but in English in many contexts, we would say, "He is king
> > > > >(over us, over the land, etc.)." We could also say in some
> > > > >circumstances, "He is a king." We would not say, "He is thief." In
>this
> > > > >type of sentence "thief" is a count noun, not a qualitative noun, so
>we
> > > > >would say, "He is a thief." In John 4:24 it is a matter of
> > > > >interpretation whether PNEUMA ("Spirit") is to be seen as a count
>noun
> > > > >or a qualitative noun. The King James Version took it as a count
>noun:
> > > > >
> > > > >King James Version: John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship
>him
> > > > >must worship him in spirit and in truth.
> > > > >
> > > > >HH: The modern versions are taking it as a qualitative noun:
> > > > >
> > > > >New International Version: John 4:24 God is spirit, and his
>worshipers
> > > > >must worship in spirit and in truth."
> > > > >
> > > > >New Revised Standard Version: God is spirit, and those who worship
>him
> > > > >must worship in spirit and truth."
> > > > >
> > > > >Holman Christian Standard Bible: God is spirit, and those who worship
> > > > >Him must worship in spirit and truth.
> > > > >
> > > > >Yours,
> > > > >Harold Holmyard
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > > > >B-Greek mailing list
> > > > >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > > > >
> > > > >---
> > > > >B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > > > >B-Greek mailing list
> > > > >B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > >http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> > > >
> > > > Anthony Buzzard
> > > > www.restorationfellowship.org
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > > > B-Greek mailing list
> > > > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > > > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> > Anthony Buzzard
> > www.restorationfellowship.org
> >

Anthony Buzzard
www.restorationfellowship.org 




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