[B-Greek] Luke 8:27
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 29 11:01:57 EDT 2007
¡ Si, señor ! See Porter, _Idioms of the Greek New Testament_
Mt. 14.6: γενεσίοις δὲ γενομένοις τοῦ Ἡρῴδου (and when the birthday of Herod came about), a possible example of the dative absolute.
Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (184). Sheffield: JSOT.
Here also the focus is upon the temporal context.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:31:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
On Jun 29, 2007, at 10:16 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of
> hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between
> ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the
> participle as the nearer referent.
Then do you too (et tu, George?) go along with those who might see
EXELQONTI AUTWi as a "Dative absolute"? If not, what account do you
offer for it's being dative?
Carl
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>
>> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse. The
>> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …" You are correct
>> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object
>> here. EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it
>> also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would
>> indicate his more immediate origin.
>
> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
> the shore ... "
>
> If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
> clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
> looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
> will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>
> I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
>> point them out.
>
> This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
> narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
> also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
> saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
> clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
> ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
> who ... "
>
> There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some
> influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance
> there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>
>> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>
>> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>> THS POLEWS ...
>>
>> Note the repetition of AUTW.
>
> Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
> and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
> lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
> absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
> that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
> (EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
> phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
> not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>
>>
>>
>> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS
>> EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA
>> OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>> ever?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)
>> the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>> the demoniac?
>>
>>
>>
>> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text
>> of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't
>> hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a
>> certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>
>>
>>
>> rod rogers
>>
>> Bargersville, In
>
>
>
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