[B-Greek] Luke 8:27-correction
Elliot Poe
Elliot.Poe at gmail.com
Fri Jun 29 12:29:38 EDT 2007
Sorry for the mistake. Of course, the dative means the verb is being
used intransitively already, but how can hUPHNTHSEN go without a dative
compliment or a direct object?
Yours,
Elliot Poe
Elliot Poe wrote:
>Just out of curiosity, George, would you then suggest hUPHNTHSEN has an
>intransitive meaning?
>
>Yours,
>Elliot Poe
>
>George F Somsel wrote:
>
>
>
>>While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the participle as the nearer referent.
>>
>>george
>>gfsomsel
>>
>>Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
>>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>defend the truth till death.
>>
>>- Jan Hus
>>_________
>>
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
>>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>>On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>>
>>>The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse. The
>>>participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>>>verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …" You are correct
>>>regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object
>>>here. EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it
>>>also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would
>>>indicate his more immediate origin.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
>>complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
>>antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
>>and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
>>AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
>>the shore ... "
>>
>>If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
>>clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
>>looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
>>will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>>
>>I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>>
>>
>>On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>>>confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>>>but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>>>for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
>>>point them out.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
>>narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
>>also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
>>saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
>>clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
>>ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
>>who ... "
>>
>>There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some
>>influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance
>>there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>>
>>>LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>>>THS POLEWS ...
>>>
>>>Note the repetition of AUTW.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
>>and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
>>lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
>>absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
>>that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
>>(EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
>>phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
>>not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>>
>>Carl W. Conrad
>>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>----- Original Message ----
>>>From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>>>Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS
>>>EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA
>>>OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>>>but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>>>"Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>>>himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>>>some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>>>ever?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)
>>>the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>>>Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>>>the demoniac?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>>>the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>>>MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text
>>>of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't
>>>hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a
>>>certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>>>many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>>>Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>>>questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>>>know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>rod rogers
>>>
>>>Bargersville, In
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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