[B-Greek] Luke 8:27
Webb
webb at selftest.net
Fri Jun 29 12:25:34 EDT 2007
Dear All,
Zerwick has something to say touching this subject, I think.
In classical usage [the genitive absolute] construction is properly restricted to expressions whose subject does not occur in the main sentence, whether as subject or in any other function; if the subject of the subordinate phrase occurs in the principal sentence, the subordinate participle is simply put in agreement with the noun or pronoun of the main sentence to which it refers. Thus Mt in 5:1 instead of KAQISANTOS AUTOU PROSHLQON AUTWi it would have been more elegant to say KAQISANTI AUTWi PROSHLQON. Biblical Greek, para. 48, p. 18, 1963 edn.
[end Zerwick quote]
I'm not sure if this observation argues for or against dative constructions of this sort being characterized as "dative absolutes".
Webb Mealy
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Steve Runge
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:56 AM
To: George F Somsel; Carl W. Conrad
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
Carl,
It would seem that EXELQONTI AUTWi is accomplishing the same kind of function as a genitive absolute in another context: it is establishing an attendant circumstance or state of affairs, where the subject of the participle is different from the subject of the main clause verb. The difference in subjects necessitates the use of a different case than the nominative, usually the genitive.
Here in Luke 8:27, there is a grammatical relation between the subject of the participle and the main clause action, as you and Elizabeth have already pointed out. So it would seem reasonable for the writer to use the appropriate case for the attendant circumstance if it is available. Here, the case is dative. Whether that makes it a dative absolute is another matter.
Take a look at some other examples where this type of relation is present between the participial subject and his/her role in the main verbal action.
Mat 8:23; 9:27; Jesus is actually reiterated in the main clause using AUTWi.
8:23 Καὶ ἐμβάντι αὐτῷ εἰς τὸ πλοῖον ἠκολούθησαν αὐτῷ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ
9:27 Καὶ παράγοντι ἐκεῖθεν τῷ Ἰησοῦ ἠκολούθησαν [αὐτῷ] δύο τυφλοὶ κράζοντες καὶ λέγοντες
In George's example of 14:6, Herod's main clause relation to the action in dative (EN TWi MESWi).
Mat 14:6 Γενεσίοις δὲ γενομένοις τοῦ Ἡρῴδου ὠρχήσατο ἡ θυγάτηρ τῆς Ἡρῳδιάδος ἐν τῷ μέσῳ καὶ ἤρεσεν τῷ Ἡρῴδῃ
Mark 16:12, 14; the implicit relation of the disciples to Jesus is dative, him appearing to them.
Mark 16:12 Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δυσὶν ἐξ αὐτῶν περιπατοῦσιν ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ πορευομένοις εἰς ἀγρόν·
Mat 16:14 Ὕστερον [δὲ] ἀνακειμένοις αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἕνδεκα ἐφανερώθη καὶ ὠνείδισεν τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν
It looks like the same kind of function as a genitive absolute, in my opinion, just shifted in case because of the grammatical relation of the subject to the main verbal action. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM
To: Carl W. Conrad
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
¡ Si, señor ! See Porter, _Idioms of the Greek New Testament_
Mt. 14.6: γενεσίοις δὲ γενομένοις τοῦ Ἡρῴδου (and when the birthday of Herod came about), a possible example of the dative absolute.
Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (184). Sheffield: JSOT.
Here also the focus is upon the temporal context.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:31:55 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
On Jun 29, 2007, at 10:16 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of
> hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between
> ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the
> participle as the nearer referent.
Then do you too (et tu, George?) go along with those who might see EXELQONTI AUTWi as a "Dative absolute"? If not, what account do you offer for it's being dative?
Carl
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>
>> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse. The
>> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …" You are correct
>> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object here.
>> EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it also states
>> that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would indicate his
>> more immediate origin.
>
> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
> the shore ... "
>
> If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
> clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
> looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
> will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>
> I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>
>> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
>> point them out.
>
> This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
> narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
> also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
> saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
> clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
> ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
> who ... "
>
> There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some influence
> on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance there
> should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>
>> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>
>> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>> THS POLEWS ...
>>
>> Note the repetition of AUTW.
>
> Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
> and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
> lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
> absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
> that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
> (EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
> phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
> not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>
>>
>>
>> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN
>> DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA OUK
>> EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>> ever?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA) the
>> direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>> the demoniac?
>>
>>
>>
>> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text of
>> Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't hUPHNTHSEN
>> ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a certain man with a
>> demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>
>>
>>
>> rod rogers
>>
>> Bargersville, In
>
>
>
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