[B-Greek] Luke 8:27

Carl W. Conrad cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 29 13:10:11 EDT 2007


On Jun 29, 2007, at 11:55 AM, Steve Runge wrote:

> Carl,
>
> It would seem that EXELQONTI AUTWi is accomplishing the same kind  
> of function as a genitive absolute in another context:  it is  
> establishing an attendant circumstance or state of affairs, where  
> the subject of the participle is different from the subject of the  
> main clause verb.  The difference in subjects necessitates the use  
> of a different case than the nominative, usually the genitive.
>
> Here in Luke 8:27, there is a grammatical relation between the  
> subject of the participle and the main clause action, as you and  
> Elizabeth have already  pointed out.  So it would seem reasonable  
> for the writer to use the appropriate case for the attendant  
> circumstance if it is available.  Here, the case is dative.   
> Whether that makes it a dative absolute is another matter.
>
> Take a look at some other examples where this type of relation is  
> present between the participial subject and his/her role in the  
> main verbal action.
> Mat 8:23; 9:27;  Jesus is actually reiterated in the main clause  
> using AUTWi.
> 8:23  Καὶ ἐμβάντι αὐτῷ εἰς τὸ  
> πλοῖον ἠκολούθησαν αὐτῷ οἱ  
> μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ
> 9:27  Καὶ παράγοντι ἐκεῖθεν τῷ  
> Ἰησοῦ ἠκολούθησαν [αὐτῷ] δύο  
> τυφλοὶ κράζοντες καὶ λέγοντες
>
> In George's example of 14:6, Herod's main clause relation to the  
> action in dative (EN TWi MESWi).
> Mat 14:6  Γενεσίοις δὲ γενομένοις τοῦ  
> Ἡρῴδου ὠρχήσατο ἡ θυγάτηρ τῆς  
> Ἡρῳδιάδος ἐν τῷ μέσῳ καὶ ἤρεσεν  
> τῷ Ἡρῴδῃ
>
> Mark 16:12, 14; the implicit relation of the disciples to Jesus is  
> dative, him appearing to them.
> Mark 16:12  Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δυσὶν ἐξ  
> αὐτῶν περιπατοῦσιν ἐφανερώθη ἐν  
> ἑτέρᾳ μορφῇ πορευομένοις εἰς  
> ἀγρόν·
>
> Mat 16:14  Ὕστερον [δὲ] ἀνακειμένοις  
> αὐτοῖς τοῖς ἕνδεκα ἐφανερώθη καὶ  
> ὠνείδισεν τὴν ἀπιστίαν αὐτῶν
>
> It looks like the same kind of function as a genitive absolute, in  
> my opinion, just shifted in case because of the grammatical  
> relation of the subject to the main verbal action.  If it walks  
> like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

I quite agree with every bit of this. The genitive absolute is so- 
called because it IS absolute, independent of any syntactic  
construction with an element in the main clause. Funk (BIGHG §847.   
"Genitive absolute. If the circumstantial participle does not refer  
to a noun (pronoun) elsewhere in the sentence, it is put in the  
genitive case, together with its complements, and called a genitive  
absolute (§845.1). It is called an absolute construction because it  
has no formal grammatical connection with the rest of the sentence"

Carl


> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek- 
> bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:02 AM
> To: Carl W. Conrad
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
> ¡ Si, señor !  See Porter, _Idioms of the Greek New Testament_
>
> Mt. 14.6: γενεσίοις δὲ γενομένοις τοῦ  
> Ἡρῴδου (and when the birthday of Herod came about), a  
> possible example of the dative absolute.
>
> Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (184).  
> Sheffield: JSOT.
>
> Here also the focus is upon the temporal context.
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,  
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend  
> the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 9:31:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
> On Jun 29, 2007, at 10:16 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of
>> hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between
>> ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the
>> participle as the nearer referent.
>
> Then do you too  (et tu, George?) go along with those who might see  
> EXELQONTI AUTWi as a "Dative absolute"? If not, what account do you  
> offer for it's being dative?
>
> Carl
>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>>
>>> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse.  The
>>> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>>> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …"  You are correct
>>> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object  
>>> here.
>>> EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it also  
>>> states
>>> that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would indicate his
>>> more immediate origin.
>>
>> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
>> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
>> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,
>> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
>> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
>> the shore ... "
>>
>> If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial
>> clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
>> looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
>> will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>>
>> I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>>
>>
>> On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>>
>>> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>>> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>>> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>>> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else  
>>> can
>>> point them out.
>>
>> This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
>> narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
>> also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
>> saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
>> clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our
>> ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
>> who ... "
>>
>> There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some  
>> influence
>> on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance there
>> should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>>
>>> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>>
>>> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>>> THS POLEWS ...
>>>
>>> Note the repetition of AUTW.
>>
>> Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
>> and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
>> lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
>> absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is
>> that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
>> (EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
>> phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author
>> not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>>
>> Carl W. Conrad
>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN
>>> DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA OUK
>>> EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>>> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>>> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>>> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>>> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>>> ever?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA) the
>>> direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>>> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>>> the demoniac?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>>> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>>> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the  
>>> text of
>>> Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't hUPHNTHSEN
>>> ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a certain man  
>>> with a
>>> demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>>> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>>> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>>> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>>> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> rod rogers
>>>
>>> Bargersville, In
>>
>>
>>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/





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