[B-Greek] Luke 8:27

George F Somsel gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Fri Jun 29 12:31:54 EDT 2007


No, not at all.  It could be that the dat obj of hUPANTHSEN is understood or even that AUTWi performs double duty.
 
george
gfsomsel
 
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.
 
- Jan Hus
_________



----- Original Message ----
From: Elliot Poe <Elliot.Poe at gmail.com>
To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
Cc: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:18:33 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27


Just out of curiosity, George, would you then suggest hUPHNTHSEN has an 
intransitive meaning?

Yours,
Elliot Poe

George F Somsel wrote:

>While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the participle as the nearer referent.
> 
>george
>gfsomsel
> 
>Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
>learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
>defend the truth till death.
> 
>- Jan Hus
>_________
>
>
>
>----- Original Message ----
>From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
>Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
>
>On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>
>>The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse.  The  
>>participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main  
>>verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …"  You are correct  
>>regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object  
>>here.  EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it  
>>also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would  
>>indicate his more immediate origin.
>>    
>>
>
>I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the  
>complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The  
>antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,  
>and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying  
>AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto  
>the shore ... "
>
>If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial  
>clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is  
>looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we  
>will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>
>I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>
>
>On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>  
>
>>EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>>confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>>but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>>for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
>>point them out.
>>    
>>
>
>This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek  
>narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's  
>also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi  
>saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius  
>clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our  
>ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,  
>who ... "
>
>There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some  
>influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance  
>there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
>
>  
>
>>You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>
>>LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>>THS POLEWS ...
>>
>>Note the repetition of AUTW.
>>    
>>
>
>Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER  
>and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might  
>lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative  
>absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is  
>that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here  
>(EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the  
>phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author  
>not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>
>Carl W. Conrad
>Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>  
>
>>----- Original Message ----
>>From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>>Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>>
>>I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>
>>
>>
>>EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS  
>>EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA  
>>OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>
>>
>>
>>I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"  
>>but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with  
>>"Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus  
>>himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as  
>>some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what  
>>ever?
>>
>>
>>
>>Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)  
>>the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.  
>>Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets  
>>the demoniac?
>>
>>
>>
>>One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that  
>>the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the  
>>MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text  
>>of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't  
>>hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a  
>>certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
>>
>>
>>
>>Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so  
>>many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative  
>>Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these  
>>questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you  
>>know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>
>>
>>
>>rod rogers
>>
>>Bargersville, In
>>    
>>
>
>
> 
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