[B-Greek] Luke 8:27

Elliot Poe Elliot.Poe at gmail.com
Fri Jun 29 12:39:51 EDT 2007


Thanks for the response, George. I can see your point, but I'd have to 
disagree. I suppose that AUTWi could be understood, but I'm not sure the 
verb is ever used without a  dative complement. At least in biblical 
texts it isn't. And if AUTWi performs double duty, then I suppose we 
don't really have a dative absolute so much as a dative semi-absolute.

Yours,
Elliot Poe

George F Somsel wrote:

> No, not at all.  It could be that the dat obj of hUPANTHSEN is 
> understood or even that AUTWi performs double duty.
>  
> george
> gfsomsel
>  
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>  
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Elliot Poe <Elliot.Poe at gmail.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:18:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>
> Just out of curiosity, George, would you then suggest hUPHNTHSEN has an
> intransitive meaning?
>
> Yours,
> Elliot Poe
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
> >While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of 
> hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between 
> ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the 
> participle as the nearer referent.
> >
> >george
> >gfsomsel
> >
> >Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> >learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> >defend the truth till death.
> >
> >- Jan Hus
> >_________
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message ----
> >From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
> >To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> >Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
> >Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
> >
> >
> >On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
> >>
> >>The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse.  The  
> >>participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main  
> >>verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …"  You are correct  
> >>regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object  
> >>here.  EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it  
> >>also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would  
> >>indicate his more immediate origin.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the  
> >complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The  
> >antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding narrative,  
> >and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying  
> >AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto  
> >the shore ... "
> >
> >If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an adverbial  
> >clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is  
> >looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we  
> >will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
> >
> >I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
> >
> >
> >On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
> >>confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
> >>but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
> >>for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone else can
> >>point them out.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek  
> >narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's  
> >also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi  
> >saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius  
> >clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about our  
> >ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,  
> >who ... "
> >
> >There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some  
> >influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if perchance  
> >there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under "Latinisms."
> >
> >  
> >
> >>You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
> >>
> >>LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
> >>THS POLEWS ...
> >>
> >>Note the repetition of AUTW.
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER  
> >and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might  
> >lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative  
> >absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I think, is  
> >that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here  
> >(EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the  
> >phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the author  
> >not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
> >
> >Carl W. Conrad
> >Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> >
> >  
> >
> >>----- Original Message ----
> >>From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
> >>To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> >>Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
> >>Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS  
> >>EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA  
> >>OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"  
> >>but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with  
> >>"Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus  
> >>himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as  
> >>some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what  
> >>ever?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)  
> >>the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.  
> >>Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets  
> >>the demoniac?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that  
> >>the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the  
> >>MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text  
> >>of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't  
> >>hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a  
> >>certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet...... (Jesus)?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so  
> >>many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative  
> >>Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these  
> >>questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you  
> >>know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>rod rogers
> >>
> >>Bargersville, In
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >
> >
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