[B-Greek] Luke 8:27
Carl W. Conrad
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
Fri Jun 29 12:46:07 EDT 2007
Just in case there were any doubt, I don't for one second acknowledge
the existence of a Dative Absolute. I understand the construction as
I construed it in my first post on this thread.
On Jun 29, 2007, at 12:39 PM, Elliot Poe wrote:
> Thanks for the response, George. I can see your point, but I'd have to
> disagree. I suppose that AUTWi could be understood, but I'm not
> sure the
> verb is ever used without a dative complement. At least in biblical
> texts it isn't. And if AUTWi performs double duty, then I suppose we
> don't really have a dative absolute so much as a dative semi-absolute.
>
> Yours,
> Elliot Poe
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> No, not at all. It could be that the dat obj of hUPANTHSEN is
>> understood or even that AUTWi performs double duty.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Elliot Poe <Elliot.Poe at gmail.com>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>; b-
>> greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 11:18:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, George, would you then suggest hUPHNTHSEN
>> has an
>> intransitive meaning?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Elliot Poe
>>
>> George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>> While I can understand why you might take AUTWi as a complement of
>> hUPANTHSEN, I think that the fact that it is sandwiched between
>> ECELQONTI DE and EPI THN GHN dictates that it be taken with the
>> participle as the nearer referent.
>>>
>>> george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Carl W. Conrad <cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu>
>>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 8:41:57 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2007, at 7:35 AM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Greetings, fellow Hoosier.
>>>>
>>>> The AUTWi is the subject of the participle in this verse. The
>>>> participial phrase tells you when the events narrated in the main
>>>> verb occurred -- "When he debarked on the land …" You are correct
>>>> regarding the demoniac being the subject rather than the object
>>>> here. EK THS POLEWS would indicate the origin of the man yet it
>>>> also states that he "stayed in [among, near] the tombs" which would
>>>> indicate his more immediate origin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd have to analyze this differently and say that AUTWi is the
>>> complement of hUPHNTHSEN, the subject of which is ANHR TIS. The
>>> antecedent of AUTWi is implicitly Jesus from the preceding
>>> narrative,
>>> and EXELQONTI I would call a circumstantial participle qualifying
>>> AUTWi. "A certain man encountered him (Jesus) as he disembarked onto
>>> the shore ... "
>>>
>>> If you're analyzing AUTWi EXELQONTI as the equivalent of an
>>> adverbial
>>> clause, there's some validity to it. But it seems to me that this is
>>> looking at the Greek construction from the point of view of how we
>>> will English it rather than in its own syntactic context.
>>>
>>> I'd agree with Elizabeth on this:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 29, 2007, at 2:13 AM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> EXELQONTI AUTWi is the dative argument for hUPHNTHSEN. The
>>>> confrontation is between Jesus and Legion, the disciples were there
>>>> but the focus is on Jesus and the demoniac. That is one explanation
>>>> for the AUTWi. There are other reasons for AUTWi but someone
>>>> else can
>>>> point them out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is a by-no-means uncommon participial usage in older Greek
>>> narrative; in my opinion Luke is probably emulating that usage. It's
>>> also a very common construction in Classical Latin, e.g. 'mihi
>>> saepenumero cogitanti de majoribus nostris in mentem venit illius
>>> clarissimi Scipionis, qui ...' "To me many a time pondering about
>>> our
>>> ancestors the thought has struck of that most distinguished Scipio,
>>> who ... "
>>>
>>> There are some who think that Latin prose usage has had some
>>> influence on Hellenistic Greek prose; anyone interested (if
>>> perchance
>>> there should be such) can consult the index of BDF under
>>> "Latinisms."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You might find it worth while to look at the Majority Text:
>>>>
>>>> LUKE 8:27 EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN UPHNTHSEN AUTW ANHR TIS EK
>>>> THS POLEWS ...
>>>>
>>>> Note the repetition of AUTW.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes; it looks like LXX imitation of a Hebrew construction with ASHER
>>> and repetition of the pronoun; this is the sort of text that might
>>> lead some to conjecture that we have such a thing as a "dative
>>> absolute" in EXELQONTI AUTWi EPI THN GHN. The likelihood, I
>>> think, is
>>> that Luke might very well have used a genitive absolute here
>>> (EXELQONTOS AUTOU EPI THN GHN) had it not been so simple to fit the
>>> phrase into the syntax of the hUPHNTHSEN clause -- and had the
>>> author
>>> not been aware of this sort of syntactic arrangement.
>>>
>>> Carl W. Conrad
>>> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>>> From: Rod Rogers <rngrogers at earthlink.net>
>>>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 10:45:56 PM
>>>> Subject: [B-Greek] Luke 8:27
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm having some problems translating Luke 8:27. Here is the text:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> EXELQONTI DE AUTW EPI THN GHN hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS
>>>> EXWN DAIMONIA KAI XRONW hIKANW OUK ENEDUSATO hIMATION KAI EN OIKIA
>>>> OUK EMENEN ALL EN TOIS MNHMASIN.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure AUTW is part of the participial phrase "EXELQONTI DE AUTW"
>>>> but I'm not sure how to understand AUTW. Is it a simple dative with
>>>> "Gaderene" as it's antecedent or is it emphatic meaning "He (Jesus
>>>> himself) came out (of the boat) or could it be a dative of time as
>>>> some grammars suggest (after He came out of the boat)..... or what
>>>> ever?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also, several translations seem to make the ANHR (EXWN DAIMONIA)
>>>> the direct object instead of the subject. Sounds confusing to me.
>>>> Shouldn't it be that the demoniac meets Him (Jesus) not Jesus meets
>>>> the demoniac?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One last thing. Several translations make EK THS POLEWS imply that
>>>> the demoniac was once a citizen of the city but now resides in the
>>>> MNHMASIN. I'm not debating where the demoniac resides but the text
>>>> of Luke 8:27 is not saying that with EK THS POLEWS. Isn't
>>>> hUPHNTHSEN ANHR TIS EK THS POLEWS EXWN DAIMONIA saying that a
>>>> certain man with a demon comes out of the city to meet......
>>>> (Jesus)?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for so many questions but I'm reluctant to disagree with so
>>>> many translations. Carl, I have read your comments on "Dative
>>>> Participle Luke 8:27" back in 1999 but I'd still like to ask these
>>>> questions if you don't mind. I guess what I don't know is how you
>>>> know AUTW is the subject of EXELQONTI.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> rod rogers
>>>>
>>>> Bargersville, In
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad2 at mac.com
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/
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