[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun May 20 09:40:09 EDT 2007


George,
   
  I do not wish to go into theology.  My observation/question is whether the proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author asserts.  Which meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as "count something to someone as something?"  Or which meaning of "credit" is it referring to when it translates "credit something to someone as something?" 
   
  John Wilking

George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
          
  Obviously, God is a CPA according to this.  :-)  
   
  It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT.  There are differing views of the death of Christ throughout the NT.  In the Apocalypse it is viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that 
   
      ἄξιος εἶ λαβεῖν τὸ βιβλίον καὶ ἀνοῖξαι τὰς σφραγῖδας αὐτοῦ,
  á½
τι ἐσφάγης καὶ ἠγόρασας τῷ θεῷ ἐν τῷ αἵματί σοÏ

  ἐκ πάσης φÏ
λῆς καὶ γλώσσης καὶ λαοῦ καὶ ἔθνοÏ
Ï‚
       
  ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
  hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
  EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
   
  On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate relationship in which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of the actions of the "head" of the corporate entity
   
  ὥσπερ γὰρ ἐν τῷ Ἀδὰμ πάντες ἀποθνῄσκοÏ
σιν, οὕτως καὶ ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ πάντες ζῳοποιηθήσονται.        
  hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN TWi XRISTWi PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
   
  Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting what is conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
 






george
gfsomsel   
   
  Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth, 
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, 
defend the truth till death.
   
  - Jan Hus
_________   

  ----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
To: Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis

  Charlie,
   
  Not sure what you're saying.
   
  Here is another example.  Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI,  BDAG places Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and then gives other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit."  I know that BDAG has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a single entry as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any sense in the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
   
  John Wilking

Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
  John,

I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the proper word for
"to impute" is ελλoγειv as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai which means “to
count” as used for example in Lk 22.37?

C. Arnold
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilking" 
To: "John Wilking" 
Cc: 
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis


> Carl,
>
> I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing, ...credited to
your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account, translate the
verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed God and it was
credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make sense in
English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the right sense.
This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I am making
a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am translating, and a
translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John Wilking wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking? Initially I
didn't think it would be necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
>
> On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> >> process. The rush to translate into English is an indication that
> >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek. Carson writes
> >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> >>
> >> Elizabeth Kline
> >>
> >
> >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have an abiding
> >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best be conveyed
in
> >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that is still a
> >strong goal here.
>
> Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth) to be an
> obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be a minor
> obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
>
>
>
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