[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
John Wilking
jcwilking at yahoo.com
Sun May 20 09:40:09 EDT 2007
George,
I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is whether the proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author asserts. Which meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as "count something to someone as something?" Or which meaning of "credit" is it referring to when it translates "credit something to someone as something?"
John Wilking
George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are differing views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In the Apocalypse it is viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that
á¼Î¾Î¹Î¿Ï εἶ λαβεá¿Î½ Ïὸ βιβλίον καὶ á¼Î½Î¿á¿Î¾Î±Î¹ Ïá½°Ï ÏÏÏαγá¿Î´Î±Ï αá½Ïοῦ,
á½
Ïι á¼ÏÏÎ¬Î³Î·Ï ÎºÎ±á½¶ ἠγÏÏαÏÎ±Ï Ïá¿· θεῷ á¼Î½ Ïá¿· αἵμαÏί ÏοÏ
á¼Îº ÏάÏÎ·Ï ÏÏ
λá¿Ï καὶ γλÏÏÏÎ·Ï ÎºÎ±á½¶ λαοῦ καὶ á¼Î¸Î½Î¿Ï
Ï
ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate relationship in which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of the actions of the "head" of the corporate entity
á½¥ÏÏÎµÏ Î³á½°Ï á¼Î½ Ïá¿· á¼Î´á½°Î¼ ÏάνÏÎµÏ á¼Ïοθνá¿ÏκοÏ
Ïιν, οá½ÏÏÏ ÎºÎ±á½¶ á¼Î½ Ïá¿· ΧÏιÏÏá¿· ÏάνÏÎµÏ Î¶á¿³Î¿ÏοιηθήÏονÏαι.
hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN TWi XRISTWi PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting what is conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
george
gfsomsel
Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
To: Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net>
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
Charlie,
Not sure what you're saying.
Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI, BDAG places Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and then gives other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit." I know that BDAG has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a single entry as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any sense in the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
John Wilking
Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
John,
I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the proper word for
"to impute" is ελλoγειv as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai which means âto
countâ as used for example in Lk 22.37?
C. Arnold
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilking"
To: "John Wilking"
Cc:
Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> Carl,
>
> I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing, ...credited to
your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account, translate the
verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed God and it was
credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make sense in
English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the right sense.
This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I am making
a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am translating, and a
translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John Wilking wrote:
> Carl,
>
> Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking? Initially I
didn't think it would be necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
>
> On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> >> process. The rush to translate into English is an indication that
> >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek. Carson writes
> >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> >>
> >> Elizabeth Kline
> >>
> >
> >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have an abiding
> >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best be conveyed
in
> >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that is still a
> >strong goal here.
>
> Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth) to be an
> obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be a minor
> obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
>
>
> Carl W. Conrad
>
>
>
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