[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
frjsilver at optonline.net
frjsilver at optonline.net
Sun May 20 15:28:15 EDT 2007
Dear Friends --
This is getting seriously overwrought.
LOGIZOMAI is frequently -- but not always -- connected to notions such as 'count' and 'reckon' -- both of which words function in much wider fields of meaning than accounting alone can accommodate, even in English. The same is only slightly less true of ARITHMEW.
In many ways, both these words are synonomous with NOMIZW in the semantic field of 'think, consider, have an idea (about)'.
We have to be flexible, not only in translation, but in our appreciation of the broader senses of Greek words in Greek, in spite of the poverty of experience and application which embarrasses some of our lexicons.
Peace and blessings to all.
Father James Silver
Monk James
Orthodox Church in America
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wilking
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:40 am
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
To: George F Somsel
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> George,
>
> I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is
> whether the proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that
> the author asserts. Which meaning of "count" is being indicated
> when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as "count something to someone as
> something?" Or which meaning of "credit" is it referring to
> when it translates "credit something to someone as something?"
>
> John Wilking
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
> Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
>
> It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are
> differing views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In
> the Apocalypse it is viewed as a mercantile transaction when it
> states that
>
> á¼Î¾Î¹Î¿Ï εἶ λαβεá¿Î½ Ïὸ βιβλίον
> καὶ á¼Î½Î¿á¿Î¾Î±Î¹ Ïá½°Ï ÏÏÏαγá¿Î´Î±Ï αá½Ïοῦ,
> á½
Ïι á¼ÏÏÎ¬Î³Î·Ï ÎºÎ±á½¶ ἠγÏÏαÏÎ±Ï Ïá¿·
> θεῷ á¼Î½ Ïá¿· αἵμαÏί ÏοÏ
> á¼Îº ÏάÏÎ·Ï ÏÏ
λá¿Ï καὶ γλÏÏÏÎ·Ï ÎºÎ±á½¶
> λαοῦ καὶ á¼Î¸Î½Î¿Ï
Ï
>
> ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
> hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
> EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
>
> On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate
> relationship in which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and
> partakes of the actions of the "head" of the corporate entity
>
> á½¥ÏÏÎµÏ Î³á½°Ï á¼Î½ Ïá¿· á¼Î´á½°Î¼ ÏάνÏεÏ
> á¼Ïοθνá¿ÏκοÏ
Ïιν, οá½ÏÏÏ ÎºÎ±á½¶ á¼Î½ Ïá¿·
> ΧÏιÏÏá¿· ÏάνÏÎµÏ Î¶á¿³Î¿ÏοιηθήÏονÏαι.
>
> hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN
> TWi XRISTWi PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
>
> Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting
> what is conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking
> To: Charlie
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
> Charlie,
>
> Not sure what you're saying.
>
> Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI,
> BDAG places Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into
> account" and then gives other translations, "place to one's
> account" and "credit." I know that BDAG has a problem with
> combining different sense meanings under a single entry as it
> has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any
> sense in the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to
> someone as someth."
>
> John Wilking
>
> Charlie wrote:
> John,
>
> I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the
> proper word for
> "to impute" is ελλoγειv as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai
> which means âto
> countâ as used for example in Lk 22.37?
>
> C. Arnold
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wilking"
> To: "John Wilking"
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> > Carl,
> >
> > I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
> Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing,
> ...credited to
> your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account,
> translate the
> verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed
> God and it was
> credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make
> sense in
> English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the
> right sense.
> This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I
> am making
> a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
> orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am
> translating, and a
> translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > John Wilking wrote:
> > Carl,
> >
> > Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking?
> Initially I
> didn't think it would be necessary.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> > >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> > >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> > >> process. The rush to translate into English is an
> indication that
> > >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek.
> Carson writes
> > >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> > >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> > >>
> > >> Elizabeth Kline
> > >>
> > >
> > >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have
> an abiding
> > >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best
> be conveyed
> in
> > >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that
> is still a
> > >strong goal here.
> >
> > Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth)
> to be an
> > obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be
> a minor
> > obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
> >
> >
> > Carl W. Conrad
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
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