[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
Charlie
c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net
Sun May 20 13:05:54 EDT 2007
I believe that when Paul uses ελλoγειv as in Rm 5.13 or logizomai as he does
elsewhere it exemplifies his general use of metaphors. These words taken, as
noted, from the world of first century commerce were intended to reveal how
our righteousness before God is "imputed:" i.e. charged to our eternal
accounts on the basis of our faith in order to contrast the righteousness
of Judaism based upon works. Romans 1.17 says dikaios ek pistews znsetai.
Now here in 5.13 Paul begins to explain the doctrine of justification by use
of this commercial metaphor.
C. Arnold
----- Original Message -----
From: "George F Somsel" <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
To: "John Wilking" <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
Cc: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:41 AM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
> And my answer was that it does make sense.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 9:40:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> George,
>
> I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is whether the
proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author asserts. Which
meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as
"count something to someone as something?" Or which meaning of "credit" is
it referring to when it translates "credit something to someone as
something?"
>
> John Wilking
>
> George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
>
> It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are differing
views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In the Apocalypse it is
viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that
>
>
> ??????????? ????? ????????????? ????? ?????????????? ???????
???????????????? ??????? ??????????????????? ????????????,
> ??????? ??????????????? ??????? ?? ?????????????? ????? ??????? ?????
????? ????????????? ??????
> ????? ?????????? ??????????? ??????? ?????????????? ??????? ?????????
??????? ?????????????
>
> ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
> hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
> EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
>
> On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate relationship in
which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of the actions of
the "head" of the corporate entity
>
> ??????????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????????? ????????????
????????????????????????????, ??????????? ??????? ????? ????? ?????????????
???????????? ???????????????????????????????.
>
> hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN TWi XRISTWi
PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
>
> Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting what is
conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> To: Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net>
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> Charlie,
>
> Not sure what you're saying.
>
> Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI, BDAG places
Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and then gives
other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit." I know that BDAG
has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a single entry
as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any sense in
the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
>
> John Wilking
>
> Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> John,
>
> I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the proper word for
> "to impute" is ??????o??????v as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai which means
???to
> count??? as used for example in Lk 22.37?
>
> C. Arnold
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wilking"
> To: "John Wilking"
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> > Carl,
> >
> > I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
> Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing, ...credited to
> your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account, translate the
> verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed God and it
was
> credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make sense in
> English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the right sense.
> This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I am making
> a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
> orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am translating, and a
> translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > John Wilking wrote:
> > Carl,
> >
> > Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking? Initially I
> didn't think it would be necessary.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> > >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> > >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> > >> process. The rush to translate into English is an indication that
> > >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek. Carson writes
> > >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> > >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> > >>
> > >> Elizabeth Kline
> > >>
> > >
> > >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have an
abiding
> > >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best be
conveyed
> in
> > >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that is still a
> > >strong goal here.
> >
> > Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth) to be an
> > obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be a minor
> > obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
> >
> >
> > Carl W. Conrad
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>
>
>
>
>
> Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles.
> Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
> Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
> http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list