[B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Wed May 23 06:48:34 EDT 2007


Charlie,
   
  You are confusing "The book read the story" nonsense with the message of the cross foolishness as the world sees it.  Two different ideas.  Mostly what I've gotten on this site is begging the question or missing the point.  That's  beating a dead horse.
   
  Thanks
  John Wilking
  
Charlie <c.arnoldjr at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
  John,

You wrote "The President credited his wife's trust to her as a good thing.
It sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker." And I agree
that with men this kind of language makes no sense. In fact as St Paul says
elsewhere in 1 Cor, God's wisdom is foolishness to the natural man. But in
the case you are examining it is God, not man, who says He is crediting our
account, imputing us with righteousness. John, God can do that wouldn't you
agree? Our account which we could never settle with God has been setttled
simply by our belief in what His Son accomplished for us on the cross and in
God's eyes that makes all who believe reconciled with Him. I've been
following your thread here and your guys are just beating this dead horse
way too much. In the words of the Eagles rock song "Get Over It".

C. Arnold


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wilking" 
To: "George F Somsel" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis


> George,
>
> Sorry, I wasn't using the English category of complement but a broader
one used by some linguists, though there isn't real uniformity. I'm using
it in a broad way, the items in the semantic and syntactic scope of the
verb, (the items in the VP minus the predicate, if you will). The verb
meaning is indicated and restricted by its complement. The English
translation of LOGIZOMAI must be consistent with the semantics of the
words and grammatical markers within the scope of the Greek word. Thus the
word "credit" as it is defined in English must be able to "credit faith,"
"credit it to a person," and "credit it as righteousness," or at least
agreeable with them even if it doesn't have that much scope And "credit"
just doesn't have that kind of meaning in English. Try it in another
sentence. "The President credited his wife's trust to her as a good thing."
It sounds like it was written by a non-native English speaker.
>
> John Wilking
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
> You seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is a passive
construction and therefore doesn't require a complement (i.e. direct object
or accusative). We can illustrate this by an English sentence. If I were
to say, "The hank has credited fifty dollars to your account", this would be
an active statement having a direct object of "fifty dollars." If, however,
I were to change the sentence to a passive construction it might then be
"Fifty dollars was credited to your account", and the complement disappears
since it is now the subject. Similarly, we might have "God credited
Abraham's trust to his account", and the object would be "Abraham's trust."
If we transform this to a passive, it might then be "Abraham's trust was
credited to his account (by God)" and now has no direct object. The passage
makes perfectly good sense as it stands.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking 
> To: George F Somsel 
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Monday, May 21, 2007 8:03:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
> George,
>
> Books and temples are are well and good but we are still restricted by
the complement of the verb. The complement completes the idea. If our
equivalent doesn't make sense with the complement, we need to find one that
does. I think the problem we've had is that we don't have a verb in English
that will easily take the complete structure. I think we should distinguish
between verbs that don't make sense and verbs that don't take certain
grammatical patterns.
>
> John Wilking
>
>
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
> While I don't desire to get into a theological discussion, the concept
that God keeps books is very old going back to Akkadian epic. One of the
functions of the temples was to function as a depository of records of
transactions. This is even exemplified in the Apocalypse where the Lamb
opens the seven-sealed scroll and finds further record in the mention of the
"Book of Life." That the text should speak of a reckoning of something to
one's account does not therefore seem surprising or out of place. I think
you need to give the matter further consideration.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking 
> To: Bryant J. Williams III 
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 7:43:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
> Bryant,
>
> I've never even heard of the distinctions you're making. My question is
from the perspective of a lexicographer. May I create for you an example
from an English dictionary. "Open" has about forty-two meanings. The
seventh meaning is "free from ice" followed by the example "the lake is
open." Imagine with me...the word "open", being the main entry is like the
Greek word LOGIZOMAI we would look up in BDAG. "Free from ice" is like
BDAG's definition "credit," and finally "the lake is open" is like the
syntactic setting BDAG provides "credit someth to someone as someth."
>
> What if Webster's had provided a different example, something like "open
book" which is from meaning five. It wouldn't work. You can take "free
from ice" and put it in the place of open to get "the lake is free from ice"
but you can't put it in "free from ice book" because it doesn't make sense.
Putting "credit" in "credit something to someone as something" doesn't make
sense in English because the verb credit doesn't have a meaning that takes
that kind of complement pattern.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> "Bryant J. Williams III" wrote:
> Dear John,
>
> Since you are referring to Romans 4:3, which is also quoting Genesis 15:6
> (LXX), then the text should be indicated.
>
> Romans 4:3,
> TI GAR hH GRAFH LEGEI? EPISTEUSEN DE ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAR ELOGISQH AUTWi
> EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
>
> Genesis 15:6,
> KAI EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
>
> NOTE: Same verse is quoted in
> Galatians 3:6,
> EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
>
> James 2:23,
> EPISTEUSEN ABRAAM TWi QEWi, KAI ELOGISQH AUTWi EIS DIKAIOSUNHN.
>
> You will notice that from EPISTEUSEN forward that is quoted identically.
> Thus, for Paul, ELOGISQH is the Accounting Term, "to credit, to place on
> account, count to one's account." Therefore, Paul is stating that when
> Abraam (Abraham) believed, God credited that belief as righteousness (cf.
> also James).
>
> It is all one and the same in meaning. The question that lies behind your
> question is, What type of righteousness was being credited? Is it judicial
> (Paul) or ethical (James)? Those questions need to be answered off list
> since there is difference of opinion on imputed or infused righteousness,
> etc.
>
> En Xristwi,
>
> Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wilking"
> To: "George F Somsel"
> Cc:
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> George,
>
> I do not wish to go into theology. My observation/question is whether the
> proposed meaning makes sense in the sentence that the author asserts.
Which
> meaning of "count" is being indicated when BDAG translates LOGIZOMAI as
> "count something to someone as something?" Or which meaning of "credit" is
> it referring to when it translates "credit something to someone as
> something?"
>
> John Wilking
>
> George F Somsel wrote:
>
> Obviously, God is a CPA according to this. :-)
>
> It is, however, a common usage throughout the NT. There are differing
> views of the death of Christ throughout the NT. In the Apocalypse it is
> viewed as a mercantile transaction when it states that
>
> ??"???????, ????? ??????????-?? ?"??? ?????????????? ???????
> ?????????-?????? ?"????, ?f??????????-?????, ??????"?????,
> ??.?"?? ????f?????????, ??????? ?? ???O?????f???, ?"??? ??????? ?????
> ?"??? ??????????"?? ?f???.
> ????? ?????f???, ???.??????, ??????? ?????Z?f?f???, ??????? ?????????
> ??????? ??"???????.?,
>
> ACIOS EI LABEIN TO BIBLION KAI ANOICAI TAS SFRAGIDAS AUTOU,
> hOTI ESFAGHS KAI HGORASAS TWi WEWi EN TWi hAIMATI SOU
> EK PASHS FULHS KAI GLWSSHS KAI LAOU KAI EQNOUS
>
> On the other hand, Paul conceives of it as a corporate relationship in
> which one is either "in Adam" or "in Christ" and partakes of the actions
of
> the "head" of the corporate entity
>
> ????f?????? ??????? ????? ?"??? ??^??????? ???????"???,
> ?????????????"?f?????.?f????, ????.?"???, ??????? ????? ?"???
???????f?"???
> ???????"???, ????????????????????f?????"????.
> hWSPER GAR EN TWi ADAM PANTES APOQNHiSKOUSIN, hOUTWS KAI EN TWi XRISTWi
> PANTES ZWiOPOIHQHSONTAI
>
> Thus, the accounting motif is simply one method of presenting what is
> conceived to have happened in Christ's death.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: John Wilking
> To: Charlie
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 8:08:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
> Charlie,
>
> Not sure what you're saying.
>
> Here is another example. Under the main entry LOGIZOMAI, BDAG places
> Rom.4:3 under the sense meaning "count, take into account" and then gives
> other translations, "place to one's account" and "credit." I know that
BDAG
> has a problem with combining different sense meanings under a single entry
> as it has done here, but in this entry none of the options make any sense
in
> the sentence that it outlines: "credit someth to someone as someth."
>
> John Wilking
>
> Charlie wrote:
> John,
>
> I've missed some of this thread but isn't it true that the proper word for
> "to impute" is ??????o??????v as in Rm 5.13 and not logizomai which means
> ??oto
> count??? as used for example in Lk 22.37?
>
> C. Arnold
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Wilking"
> To: "John Wilking"
> Cc:
> Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 4:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] translating and grammatical analysis
>
>
> > Carl,
> >
> > I'll take that as a yes. D.A. Carson said in "The Vindication of
> Imputation" that LOGIZOMAI means "a crediting, an imputing, ...credited to
> your account." If LOGIZOMAI means to credit to your account, translate the
> verse that way to make sure it makes sense: "Abraham believed God and it
was
> credited to his account as righteousness." This doesn't make sense in
> English and translations need to make sense, most notedly the right sense.
> This kind of freedom is seen frequently. It would seem that if I am making
> a point about Greek grammar (and most grammar above the phonetic and
> orthographic levels is semantics) or its lexicon I am translating, and a
> translation is where my feet are put to the fire.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > John Wilking wrote:
> > Carl,
> >
> > Would it be best to give an example of what I'm thinking? Initially I
> didn't think it would be necessary.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> >
> > "Carl W. Conrad" wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday, May 19, 2007, at 01:37PM, "Charlie" wrote:
> > >On May 19, 2007, at 12:43 p.m., Elizabeth Kline wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> If you know Greek and you are doing serious grammatical analysis
> > >> translation is not a necessary or even a desirable step in the
> > >> process. The rush to translate into English is an indication that
> > >> someone involved in the discussion does not know Greek. Carson writes
> > >> for both professional and popular audiences. Perhaps you stumbled
> > >> upon one something intended for professionals.
> > >>
> > >> Elizabeth Kline
> > >>
> > >
> > >But, afterall this IS Biblical Greek and most of us here have an
abiding
> > >interest in the Greek from the standpoint of how it can best be
conveyed
> in
> > >English. While there must be no "rush" to translation, that is still a
> > >strong goal here.
> >
> > Yes, it sometimes seems to me (as it clearly doesto Elizabeth) to be an
> > obsession. So much so that understanding almost appears to be a minor
> > obstacle that may even be "passed by on the other side."
> >
> >
> > Carl W. Conrad
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
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> >
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