[B-Greek] UBS Reader's Edition GNT
Mark Lightman
lightmanmark at yahoo.com
Sat Nov 24 14:27:36 EST 2007
Since there still seems to be interest in what is
to ME a very interesting topic, let me add a few
more cents.
Carl's comparing the new UBS Reader's Edition to
an interlinear does not apply as well to Zondervan's
since again those notes do not normally list a "one
word gloss" but come straight from Trenchards book
and list a range of possible meanings, I think on average
about three, sometimes as many as five. In my opinon,
this is often all Bauer does, go through all the possible
NT meanings. Of course, in many
entries Bauer does MORE than this, but even there the
point is, it takes seconds to glance down at the notes versus
minutes to look up the entry in Bauer, and often you really
have not learned anything more.
In recommending the NET/NA27 diglot, Carl is superlatively
correct. It is the single text/resource that I use most, much
better than the NA27/RSV diglot. Ironically the best feature
of the NET diglot is the notes that say Grk "xxx..." which
do a great job of giving you phrases which are literal
AND understandable. It raises the question why these could
not be in the translation with a freer rendering in the notes (sort
of like the question why don't they make the airplane out
of the same stuff they make the black box?) which would
save you the time of having to track down the notes.
The textual notes are also excellent, better even than
Metzgar's Commentary (though not covering as many readings.)
Everyone who is learning NT Greek should get this diglot
(pay the extra money and get the leather covered.)
But to say that one should get this diglot or any diglot
INSTEAD of a Reader's Edition is to miss the point that
they provide different purposes. Looking at a translation
is great and often necessary if the Greek is really hard, but
it interupts the flow of reading much more than a single
glance down to spot a single word and then to quickly
return to the flow of reading. Again, often the glance
down is only to CONFIRM the meaning the of the word,
or to confirm the lexical form (i.e. is it an alpha or an epsilon
contract verb, what does the present stem look like, etc.)
Also, I think glancing at the words helps drill the meaning
into your brain, better than looking at the translation. There
is also something about looking at the bottom of the page
versus looking at a facing page. Plus, the Zondervan edition,
at least, is smaller and more portable, although I don't see why
you could not make a diglot just as thin if you used thin paper and
more of the page. Since vocab acquisition (and retention!) is
the biggest challenge for most of us, everyone learning NT
Greek should also have this Reader's Edition in addition to
the diglot.
As to the issue that Bert and others have raised about whether
they should feel guilty about not using an unmarked text, again I wonder if
there is any value to EVER using an unmarked text. Think about it.
All of us, when we read, find SOMETHING perplexing about the
text. I think that both Zondervan's Reader's Edition and the NET
diglot have so much information that we will NEVER be in a
position that we will not benefit from learning something from
them. From Zondervan you can always benifit from checking what
the genitive of a noun is, what are the other meanings of SUMBIBAZW
are, whether GALA is neuter of feminine, etc. The NET diglot, because
it often includes translated phrases from many translations, is a mine
that is not likely to be depleted in one's life time. So they will never, in
my opinion be outgrown. And to say (as even a friend of mine has
said) that you don't want to own a diglot or a Reader's Edition because
you are afraid you will cheat is like saying you don't want to have a
fire extinguisher because you are afraid you will use it to blow out
birthday cake candles. If you have the discilpine to learn NT Greek,
you have the discipline to own a tool and not to use it.
But that leaves one final question. Is there much value in reading
an unmarked text and looking up nothing, not going to a translation,
not looking up a word even in the Great Scott, not going to a good
Greek based commentary, just sitting there and reading say a chapter
with no extra info? I am inclined to say "yes" somehow, that this
allows you to absorb the text uninterupted and after all this is how we
read in English. In reading Hamlet I can always learn more by looking
at the notes or looking up "fardels" in a dictionary, but I would never say
one should not just sit and read Hamlet. So the point is, do it all, use
Reader's Editions, use an interlinear with a card covering up the
English, use a diglot, read an unmarked text.
p.s. I have seen Zondervan's revised edition and the font is much improved but
it appears in so doing they have made it a little smaller. I am anxious to see the
font size of the new UBS Reader's Edition. If it's bigger and cleaner that would
be the only reason I would have for prefering it over Zondervan's which is
MUCH cheaper and again gives more definitions. If any one has used the new UBS
I would like to hear about it.
Bert de Haan <dehaanaf at gmail.com> wrote:
I see now that I misunderstood you. I certainly don't fit the
description you gave of someone who uses the
["Reader's Edition GNT" as a Greek NT for people who (a)...]
but I do use a book much like the Reader's Edition GNT. That is why I
took your comments to refer to my use of aids like this. For
learning Greek, I can't say that I have out grown the interlinear, I
have never really been able to use it for that. However, "Refresh
your Greek" is a great help for me. Someday the time will come when I
out grow it. I am looking forward to that, but I intend to enjoy the
time in between as well.
My oversensitivity to, and misunderstanding of your comments no doubt
has to do with the disillusionment I felt when I tried to follow the
advice of you, Dr. Buth and others; In addition to times of reading
with the lexicon and grammar beside me, I also tried to read sections
without any aids at all and got totally lost in a jumble of words of
which I did not understand enough to form sentences. Most times I find
it impossible to deduce the meaning of a word if it is next to two or
three other words I don't understand. When I had to learn English, I
started by reading books etc with a dictionary beside. Once someone
gets to the point when he can understand, let's say, 85% of the
sentences without having to look up something, it makes sense to me
that he can read the other 15% as well and have a pretty good idea
what they mean. I am not at that level yet.
Just because this advise didn't seem to work for me does not mean that
I will disregard other advise; I just bought "The Apostolic Fathers:
Greek Texts And English Translations"
Bert de Haan.
On Nov 24, 2007 6:32 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
> On Nov 23, 2007, at 10:59 PM, Bert de Haan wrote:
>
> > Carl Conrad wrote on
> > Wed, 21 Nov 2007 08:56:02 -0500:
> >
> >>> I'd have to say that I think an interlinear would be more
> >>> immediately useful for the person who can't really read NT Greek or
> >>> cope with a real lexicon.
> >
> > I am assuming that this is an overreaction. If not, then I don't
> > understand you. I have a interlinear but never use it anymore.
>
> I really don't think I've said anything different about interlinears
> on other occasions. You are citing the final sentence of a paragraph
> intended to discourage use of the "Reader's Edition GNT." In the
> fuller context, what I said about interlinears is that they are better
> than the "Reader's Edition" for the sort of person who thinks they'd
> find the "Reader's Edition" useful. Here's that full paragraph:
>
> "It would appear that we are defining "Reader's Edition GNT" as a
> Greek NT for people who (a) really can't read NT Greek, i.e. recognize
> at sight the inflected forms of verbs, nouns, adjectives, and adverbs,
> and (b) can't cope with a lexicon that lays out the full range of
> potential meanings of Greek words but must rely instead upon someone
> else's selection from a short list of glosses in what is just about
> the weakest of all lexical aids available for study of the GNT, and
> (c) doesn't need a grammar, because it is assumed that the single-word
> glosses and parsing of words is sufficient to yield the literal
> meaning of the Greek text. I suppose there's something satisfying
> about the lack of any critical apparatus too: it relieves the reader
> from the uncomfortable notion that the Greek text he or she is looking
> at is something other than an editorial composite of manuscript
> evidence. I'd have to say that I think an interlinear would be more
> immediately useful for the person who can't really read NT Greek or
> cope with a real lexicon."
>
>
> > I used to use it only for looking up the citations on B-Greek
> > because I
> > found the transliteration hard to read. (I haven't used it for quite a
> > while but can't bring myself to throwing it out. I find it hard to
> > throw away, something I paid money for ;) ) Unless I were to use a
> > card or something to cover the English, I can't read the Greek without
> > seeing the English and reading like that is an exercise in futility.
> > I do make use of "Refresh your Greek." I use it in church with joy.
> > I have tried to read without using any aid what-so-ever but there are
> > too many passages where I would completely lose the thread of the
> > passage. I found that that resulted in reading bits and pieces without
> > context: Not very helpful in trying to figure out the unfamiliar
> > vocabulary. There are many passages I can read without any help,
> > without effort even, but there are even more of them where I do need
> > help. I make use of BDAG as well but I do not take it to church with
> > me. I can see the benefit of a diglot but it I also see a disadvantage
> > that something like "Reader's Edition GNT" and " Refresh your Greek"
> > doesn't have. Even though the latter two give some glosses, they do
> > not regurgitate it and spit out a sentence. That is something I have
> > to do. It is simpler to read the GNT if you have an English
> > translation laying next to it, than if all you have is some help with
> > a few words.
>
> If I may again put my words in context, here's the final paragraph of
> the message to which Bert is responding:
>
> On Nov 21, 2007, at 8:56 AM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
> > I'm aware and I (grudgingly, of course) accept the proposition that
> > some learners find the interlinears really helpful and really do move
> > on beyond them to reading the Greek text without that crutch, but I
> > would still say that the diglot is more likely to fill that need for
> > an intermediate reader of the GNT.
>
>
> My complaint regarding interlinears has to do with their continued
> abuse as a crutch; for those students who can make use of them and
> discard them when they no longer need them, they may supply a useful
> service. As for books that have outlived their usefulness for me, I
> don't feel that much pain in discarding them. In retirement I find my
> bookshelves really cramped, and I'm finding it a healthy exercise to
> do a little triage on my collection fairly often.
>
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>
---
B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
B-Greek mailing list
B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
---------------------------------
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list