[B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive level.

Carl Conrad cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Apr 6 17:20:01 EDT 2008


On Apr 6, 2008, at 3:00 PM, George F Somsel wrote:

> Philo uses a similar construction, but the acc is the obj, not the  
> subj, of the inf.
>
>
> δὲ μὴ ἀγνοεῖν, ὅτι πολλὰ διὰ τῆς  
> ἀπαρχῆς καὶ ὠφελιμώτατα  
> παρίσταται· πρῶτον μὲν θεοῦ μνήμη,  
> ἧς οὐκ ἔστιν εὑρεῖν ἀγαθὸν  
> τελειότερον, ἔπειτα δὲ τῷ πρὸς  
> ἀλήθειαν αἰτίῳ τῆς εὐκαρπίας  
> ἀμοιβὴ δικαιοτάτη
>
> Borgen, P., Fuglseth, K., & Skarsten, R. (2005). The Works of  
> Philo : Greek Text with Morphology (Spec II 171). Bellingham, WA:  
> Logos Research Systems, Inc.
>
> DE MH AGNOEIN, hOTI POLLA DIA THS APARXHS KAI WFELIMWTATA  
> PARISTATAI; PRWTON MEN QEOIU MNHMH, hHS OUT ESTIN hEUREIN AGAQON  
> TELEIOTERON, EPEITA DE TWi PROS ALHQEIAN AITIWi THS EUKARPIAS AMOIBH  
> DIKAOTATH

George, surely that's DEI (δεῖ), isn't it? Or is there some element  
preceding the DE (δὲ). The text as you've given it must otherwise be  
truncated; it doesn't really make sense. (Is that De legibus  
specialibus 2? Can you give a more precise reference than simply the  
book number?)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com>
> To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 2:34:13 PM
> Subject: [B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive  
> level.
>
> The discussion on Isaih 48 touches on an interesting side of Greek,
> getting the strength and emotive level correct.
>
> The idiom is OUK ESTIN + [POIHSAI] ME (aparemfatos/infinitive).
> there is no way for me 'to do', which I read as a strong statement.
>
> Conrad:
>> "It is impossible for the unrighteous to be happy/glad."
>> NEVERTHELESS, I don't think that the LXX translator has erred; if the
>> Hebrew formulation of the proposition is,
>> "There is no sense of well- being for the unrighteous,"
>>
> Silva (referenced by Pietersma)
>> "There is no rejoicing," says the Lord, "for the impious."
>
> Carl's first line above expresses what I have just been
> writing into a drill for some of our summer pedagogy.
>
> In preparing material for a papyri (152BCE) written by an exasperated
> brother and business partner who was about to go bankrupt I want
> students to be able to say "there's no way I could/would come"
>
> The business partner said:
> OUK ESTIN ANAKUPSAI ME
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνακύψαι με.
> "there is no way for me to raise my head (in the city)."
> apparently with not a little emotion.
>
> It is a simple and seemingly colloquial idiom with some 'punch'.
> I want students to be able to say the following
> while pointing at an appropriate doer:
> (that is, they must point to the 'you' if they say "no way you can  
> come!"
> or another verb in another situation.)
> (but they are NOT to say the English, or even bother to think it  
> through.
> It is given here for the internet. things like this are
> to be spoken in Greek.)
>
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν με.              there is no way  
> for me to come.
>
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN SE
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> σε.                                    ... you to come.
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTON
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> αὐτόν.                                ... him to come.
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTOUS
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> αὐτούς.                              ... them to come.
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN HMAS
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> ἡμᾶς.                                  ... us to come.
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN UMAS
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> ὑμᾶς.                                ... you to come.
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTHN
> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν  
> αὐτήν.                                ... me to come.
> (And depending on the context, other verbs, too, and acted
> out if in a live skit.)
>
> Anyway it's an easy idiom to learn to use.
>
> One question that could arise from this is whether we are
> seeing this same idiom at Isaiah 48:22 where the persons
> are expressed as dotike [dative]  'beneficiaries' rather than
> aitiatike [accusative] 'doers'.
> Is it the same emotive "there's no way!" that Apollonios was
> telling off his brother Ptolemaios in 152 BCE?
>
> Well, I think that a 'strong reading' is a more probable reading of
> Greek Is 48.22, than a flat statement:  'there is no rejoicing for
> the impious'.
>
> ESTIN with a DOTIKH dative is common in Greek and I've
> seen datives override infinitives as almost-subjects (though I can't
> think of an example off the top of my head). Plus, the Hebrew
> source already provides a strong enough explanation about
> why a translator would choose a DOTIKH instead of an
> AITIATIKH here.
>
> And when I say emotive, I don't mean only with a raised voice
> and excitement, I would also include strong denial.
> Can you come to the SUMPOSION Friday evening?
> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME.  There's no way I can come. Not
> emotional, but unequivocally no. "Definitely not."
>
>
> ERRWSQE
>
> -- 
> Randall Buth, PhD







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