[B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive level.
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Sun Apr 6 17:47:41 EDT 2008
On Apr 6, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
> On Apr 6, 2008, at 3:00 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> Philo uses a similar construction, but the acc is the obj, not the
>> subj, of the inf.
>>
>>
>> δὲ μὴ ἀγνοεῖν, ὅτι πολλὰ διὰ τῆς
>> ἀπαρχῆς καὶ ὠφελιμώτατα
>> παρίσταται· πρῶτον μὲν θεοῦ μνήμη,
>> ἧς οὐκ ἔστιν εὑρεῖν ἀγαθὸν
>> τελειότερον, ἔπειτα δὲ τῷ πρὸς
>> ἀλήθειαν αἰτίῳ τῆς εὐκαρπίας
>> ἀμοιβὴ δικαιοτάτη
>>
>> Borgen, P., Fuglseth, K., & Skarsten, R. (2005). The Works of
>> Philo : Greek Text with Morphology (Spec II 171). Bellingham, WA:
>> Logos Research Systems, Inc.
>>
>> DE MH AGNOEIN, hOTI POLLA DIA THS APARXHS KAI WFELIMWTATA
>> PARISTATAI; PRWTON MEN QEOIU MNHMH, hHS OUT ESTIN hEUREIN AGAQON
>> TELEIOTERON, EPEITA DE TWi PROS ALHQEIAN AITIWi THS EUKARPIAS AMOIBH
>> DIKAOTATH
>
> George, surely that's DEI (δεῖ), isn't it? Or is there some
> element
> preceding the DE (δὲ). The text as you've given it must otherwise
> be
> truncated; it doesn't really make sense. (Is that De legibus
> specialibus 2? Can you give a more precise reference than simply the
> book number?)
I found it, and it was indeed De legibus specialibus 2.171. It's
προσήκει δὲ μὴ ἀγνοεῖν ... [PROSHKEI DE MH
AGNOEIN ... ]. That makes more sense.
ESTIN with infinitive in the sense "it is possible to ... " is common
enough:
BDAG s.v. EIMI, #7:
7. to exist as possibility ἔστιν [)/ESTIN] w. inf. foll. it is
possible, one can (Περὶ ὕψους [PERI hUYOUS ]6; Diog. L. 1,
110 ἔστιν εὑρεῖν [)/ESTIN hEUREIN] =one can find; Just.,
A I, 59, 10 ἔστι ταῦτα ἀκοῦσαι καὶ
μαθεῖν [)/ESTI TAUTA AKOUSAI KAI MAQEIN]; D. 42, 3 ἰδεῖν
[IDEIN] al.; Mel., P. 19, 127); neg. οὐκ ἔστιν νῦν
λέγειν [OUK )/ESTIN NUN LEGEIN] it is not possible to speak at
this time Hb 9:5. οὐκ ἔστιν φαγεῖν [OUK )/ESTIN
FAGEIN] it is impossible to eat 1 Cor 11:20 (so Hom. et al.; UPZ 70,
23 [152/151 BC] οὐκ ἔστι ἀνακύψαι με
πώποτε . . . ὑπὸ τῆς αἰσχύνης [OUK )/ESTI
ANAKUYAI ME PWPOTE ... hUPO THS AISCUNHS]; 4 Macc 13:5; Wsd 5:10; Sir
14:16; 18:6; EpJer 49 al.; EpArist 163; Jos., Ant. 2, 335; Ath. 22, 3
ἔστιν εἰπεῖν [)/ESTIN EIPEIN]).
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com>
>> To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 2:34:13 PM
>> Subject: [B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive
>> level.
>>
>> The discussion on Isaih 48 touches on an interesting side of Greek,
>> getting the strength and emotive level correct.
>>
>> The idiom is OUK ESTIN + [POIHSAI] ME (aparemfatos/infinitive).
>> there is no way for me 'to do', which I read as a strong statement.
>>
>> Conrad:
>>> "It is impossible for the unrighteous to be happy/glad."
>>> NEVERTHELESS, I don't think that the LXX translator has erred; if
>>> the
>>> Hebrew formulation of the proposition is,
>>> "There is no sense of well- being for the unrighteous,"
>>>
>> Silva (referenced by Pietersma)
>>> "There is no rejoicing," says the Lord, "for the impious."
>>
>> Carl's first line above expresses what I have just been
>> writing into a drill for some of our summer pedagogy.
>>
>> In preparing material for a papyri (152BCE) written by an exasperated
>> brother and business partner who was about to go bankrupt I want
>> students to be able to say "there's no way I could/would come"
>>
>> The business partner said:
>> OUK ESTIN ANAKUPSAI ME
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνακύψαι με.
>> "there is no way for me to raise my head (in the city)."
>> apparently with not a little emotion.
>>
>> It is a simple and seemingly colloquial idiom with some 'punch'.
>> I want students to be able to say the following
>> while pointing at an appropriate doer:
>> (that is, they must point to the 'you' if they say "no way you can
>> come!"
>> or another verb in another situation.)
>> (but they are NOT to say the English, or even bother to think it
>> through.
>> It is given here for the internet. things like this are
>> to be spoken in Greek.)
>>
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν με. there is no way
>> for me to come.
>>
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN SE
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> σε. ... you to come.
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTON
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> αὐτόν. ... him to come.
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTOUS
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> αὐτούς. ... them to come.
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN HMAS
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> ἡμᾶς. ... us to come.
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN UMAS
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> ὑμᾶς. ... you to come.
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTHN
>> οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
>> αὐτήν. ... me to come.
>> (And depending on the context, other verbs, too, and acted
>> out if in a live skit.)
>>
>> Anyway it's an easy idiom to learn to use.
>>
>> One question that could arise from this is whether we are
>> seeing this same idiom at Isaiah 48:22 where the persons
>> are expressed as dotike [dative] 'beneficiaries' rather than
>> aitiatike [accusative] 'doers'.
>> Is it the same emotive "there's no way!" that Apollonios was
>> telling off his brother Ptolemaios in 152 BCE?
>>
>> Well, I think that a 'strong reading' is a more probable reading of
>> Greek Is 48.22, than a flat statement: 'there is no rejoicing for
>> the impious'.
>>
>> ESTIN with a DOTIKH dative is common in Greek and I've
>> seen datives override infinitives as almost-subjects (though I can't
>> think of an example off the top of my head). Plus, the Hebrew
>> source already provides a strong enough explanation about
>> why a translator would choose a DOTIKH instead of an
>> AITIATIKH here.
>>
>> And when I say emotive, I don't mean only with a raised voice
>> and excitement, I would also include strong denial.
>> Can you come to the SUMPOSION Friday evening?
>> OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME. There's no way I can come. Not
>> emotional, but unequivocally no. "Definitely not."
>>
>>
>> ERRWSQE
>>
>> --
>> Randall Buth, PhD
>
>
>
>
> ---
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