[B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive level.
Randall Buth
randallbuth at gmail.com
Mon Apr 7 06:45:38 EDT 2008
Thank you for the BDAG quote. I see that it has the instance from
papyri in Living Koine Greek listed in full.
That papyri is just too darkly humorous not to give beginning
students.
And in terms of the general principle of interpreting something within
the language system itself, one should ask,
how else can one say the idea. E.g.,
OYK ERXOMAI. I'm not coming.
OYK ELEYSOMAI. I will not come.
OY PARAGENHSOMAI. I will not attend/come.
OY DYNAMAI ELQEIN. I can't come
OY QELW ELQEIN. I don't want to come
OY BOYLEYOMAI ELQEIN. I am not intending to come.
OY XRH ME ELQEIN. I shouldn't come.
DEI ME MH ELQEIN. I really shouldn't come.
OY DEI ME ELQEIN. I should not come. (negative covers 'coming' like previous.)
MH EKSESTIN MOI ELQEIN. it's not permitted for me to come, is it? (No.)
OYK EKSESTIN MOI ELQEIN it is not permitted for me to come.
OYK ESTIN ELQEIN ME. There is no way for me to come.
ktl.
PS: one doesn't learn the above at the same time,
that would be a recipe for disaster. Each one needs
to be used one by one. Just like Johnny Cash's old
song, One Piece at a Time.
Just like kids learn any natural language.
And having been learned, their meaning is not just
their 'dictionary meaning' but the fact that one of the other
ways was not chosen.
ERRWSQE
IWANHS
2008/4/7 Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>:
>
> On Apr 6, 2008, at 5:20 PM, Carl Conrad wrote:
>
>
> >
> > On Apr 6, 2008, at 3:00 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Philo uses a similar construction, but the acc is the obj, not the
> > > subj, of the inf.
> > >
> > >
> > > δὲ μὴ ἀγνοεῖν, ὅτι πολλὰ διὰ τῆς
> > > ἀπαρχῆς καὶ ὠφελιμώτατα
> > > παρίσταται· πρῶτον μὲν θεοῦ μνήμη,
> > > ἧς οὐκ ἔστιν εὑρεῖν ἀγαθὸν
> > > τελειότερον, ἔπειτα δὲ τῷ πρὸς
> > > ἀλήθειαν αἰτίῳ τῆς εὐκαρπίας
> > > ἀμοιβὴ δικαιοτάτη
> > >
> > > Borgen, P., Fuglseth, K., & Skarsten, R. (2005). The Works of
> > > Philo : Greek Text with Morphology (Spec II 171). Bellingham, WA:
> > > Logos Research Systems, Inc.
> > >
> > > DE MH AGNOEIN, hOTI POLLA DIA THS APARXHS KAI WFELIMWTATA
> > > PARISTATAI; PRWTON MEN QEOIU MNHMH, hHS OUT ESTIN hEUREIN AGAQON
> > > TELEIOTERON, EPEITA DE TWi PROS ALHQEIAN AITIWi THS EUKARPIAS AMOIBH
> > > DIKAOTATH
> > >
> >
> > George, surely that's DEI (δεῖ), isn't it? Or is there some element
> > preceding the DE (δὲ). The text as you've given it must otherwise be
> > truncated; it doesn't really make sense. (Is that De legibus
> > specialibus 2? Can you give a more precise reference than simply the
> > book number?)
> >
>
> I found it, and it was indeed De legibus specialibus 2.171. It's προσήκει
> δὲ μὴ ἀγνοεῖν ... [PROSHKEI DE MH AGNOEIN ... ]. That makes more sense.
>
> ESTIN with infinitive in the sense "it is possible to ... " is common
> enough:
>
> BDAG s.v. EIMI, #7:
> 7. to exist as possibility ἔστιν [)/ESTIN] w. inf. foll. it is
> possible, one can (Περὶ ὕψους [PERI hUYOUS ]6; Diog. L. 1, 110 ἔστιν εὑρεῖν
> [)/ESTIN hEUREIN] =one can find; Just., A I, 59, 10 ἔστι ταῦτα ἀκοῦσαι καὶ
> μαθεῖν [)/ESTI TAUTA AKOUSAI KAI MAQEIN]; D. 42, 3 ἰδεῖν [IDEIN] al.; Mel.,
> P. 19, 127); neg. οὐκ ἔστιν νῦν λέγειν [OUK )/ESTIN NUN LEGEIN] it is not
> possible to speak at this time Hb 9:5. οὐκ ἔστιν φαγεῖν [OUK )/ESTIN FAGEIN]
> it is impossible to eat 1 Cor 11:20 (so Hom. et al.; UPZ 70, 23 [152/151 BC]
> οὐκ ἔστι ἀνακύψαι με πώποτε . . . ὑπὸ τῆς αἰσχύνης [OUK )/ESTI ANAKUYAI ME
> PWPOTE ... hUPO THS AISCUNHS]; 4 Macc 13:5; Wsd 5:10; Sir 14:16; 18:6; EpJer
> 49 al.; EpArist 163; Jos., Ant. 2, 335; Ath. 22, 3 ἔστιν εἰπεῖν [)/ESTIN
> EIPEIN]).
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Carl W. Conrad
> > Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> >
> >
> > >
> > > - Jan Hus
> > > _________
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----
> > > From: Randall Buth <randallbuth at gmail.com>
> > > To: greek B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 6, 2008 2:34:13 PM
> > > Subject: [B-Greek] OUK ESTIN POIHSAI AUTON, Isaiah 48 and emotive
> > > level.
> > >
> > > The discussion on Isaih 48 touches on an interesting side of Greek,
> > > getting the strength and emotive level correct.
> > >
> > > The idiom is OUK ESTIN + [POIHSAI] ME (aparemfatos/infinitive).
> > > there is no way for me 'to do', which I read as a strong statement.
> > >
> > > Conrad:
> > >
> > > > "It is impossible for the unrighteous to be happy/glad."
> > > > NEVERTHELESS, I don't think that the LXX translator has erred; if the
> > > > Hebrew formulation of the proposition is,
> > > > "There is no sense of well- being for the unrighteous,"
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Silva (referenced by Pietersma)
> > >
> > > > "There is no rejoicing," says the Lord, "for the impious."
> > > >
> > >
> > > Carl's first line above expresses what I have just been
> > > writing into a drill for some of our summer pedagogy.
> > >
> > > In preparing material for a papyri (152BCE) written by an exasperated
> > > brother and business partner who was about to go bankrupt I want
> > > students to be able to say "there's no way I could/would come"
> > >
> > > The business partner said:
> > > OUK ESTIN ANAKUPSAI ME
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἀνακύψαι με.
> > > "there is no way for me to raise my head (in the city)."
> > > apparently with not a little emotion.
> > >
> > > It is a simple and seemingly colloquial idiom with some 'punch'.
> > > I want students to be able to say the following
> > > while pointing at an appropriate doer:
> > > (that is, they must point to the 'you' if they say "no way you can
> > > come!"
> > > or another verb in another situation.)
> > > (but they are NOT to say the English, or even bother to think it
> > > through.
> > > It is given here for the internet. things like this are
> > > to be spoken in Greek.)
> > >
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν με. there is no way
> > > for me to come.
> > >
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN SE
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > σε. ... you to come.
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTON
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > αὐτόν. ... him to come.
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTOUS
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > αὐτούς. ... them to come.
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN HMAS
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > ἡμᾶς. ... us to come.
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN UMAS
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > ὑμᾶς. ... you to come.
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN AUTHN
> > > οὐκ ἔστιν ἐλθεῖν
> > > αὐτήν. ... me to come.
> > > (And depending on the context, other verbs, too, and acted
> > > out if in a live skit.)
> > >
> > > Anyway it's an easy idiom to learn to use.
> > >
> > > One question that could arise from this is whether we are
> > > seeing this same idiom at Isaiah 48:22 where the persons
> > > are expressed as dotike [dative] 'beneficiaries' rather than
> > > aitiatike [accusative] 'doers'.
> > > Is it the same emotive "there's no way!" that Apollonios was
> > > telling off his brother Ptolemaios in 152 BCE?
> > >
> > > Well, I think that a 'strong reading' is a more probable reading of
> > > Greek Is 48.22, than a flat statement: 'there is no rejoicing for
> > > the impious'.
> > >
> > > ESTIN with a DOTIKH dative is common in Greek and I've
> > > seen datives override infinitives as almost-subjects (though I can't
> > > think of an example off the top of my head). Plus, the Hebrew
> > > source already provides a strong enough explanation about
> > > why a translator would choose a DOTIKH instead of an
> > > AITIATIKH here.
> > >
> > > And when I say emotive, I don't mean only with a raised voice
> > > and excitement, I would also include strong denial.
> > > Can you come to the SUMPOSION Friday evening?
> > > OUK ESTIN ELQEIN ME. There's no way I can come. Not
> > > emotional, but unequivocally no. "Definitely not."
> > >
> > >
> > > ERRWSQE
> > >
> > > --
> > > Randall Buth, PhD
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> > B-Greek mailing list
> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
> >
>
>
--
Randall Buth, PhD
www.biblicalulpan.org
randallbuth at gmail.com
Biblical Language Center
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