[B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding

John Wilking jcwilking at yahoo.com
Wed Aug 13 08:56:58 EDT 2008


Carl,

Yea.  I should have said that the sense meanings (definitions) in the bilingual dictionary are translations, whether they are loose or highly analytic.  The main entry is called a header, if I remember correctly.

I've got a few other points if this flies.

John 


--- On Mon, 8/11/08, Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:

> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and "final meaning" - translation vs. understanding
> To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Date: Monday, August 11, 2008, 12:12 PM
> We really need to be clear on our use of terminology. We
> simply may  
> not be using words the same way.
> 
> By "entry" in a lexicon/dictionary I mean an Item
> listed in serial  
> alphabetical continuity at the left-hand side of the page.
> 
> "Lemma" (pl. "lemmata") is my term for
> the word-form used in the  
> primary position in an "entry" (e.g. Greek verbs
> are usually given in  
> the 1 sg. pres. indic. active or m/p, nouns in the nom.
> sg., etc., etc.)
> 
> "Definition" would be my term for the primary
> sense assigned by the  
> lexicographer to the "entry." I'm wondering
> whether by "translation"  
> in the Larousse English/French dictionary, you mean that
> the  
> "definitions" given in English are translations
> of French equivalents?
> 
> When I referred to Larousse, I meant the French unaabridged
> dictionary  
> (with French definitions).
> 
> Carl W. Conrad
> Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 11, 2008, at 7:43 AM, John Wilking wrote:
> 
> > Carl,
> >
> > I have a copy of Larousse English/French Dictionary
> and they call  
> > the entries translations.  Why wouldn't we assume
> that the English  
> > entries in BDAG were translations?
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Carl Conrad
> <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Carl Conrad <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and
> "final meaning" -  
> >> translation vs. understanding
> >> To: jcwilking at yahoo.com
> >> Cc: "B-Greek B-Greek"
> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >> Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 10:25 PM
> >> On Aug 10, 2008, at 5:36 PM, John Wilking wrote:
> >>
> >>> Carl,
> >>>
> >>> I'm first of all wondering about the
> bilingual
> >> BDAG one that we
> >>> have.  Does it have the same function as other
> current
> >> bilingual
> >>> dictionaries with reference to definitions?
> >>
> >> Yes, in my opinion. No dictionary/lexicon is
> perfect, and I
> >> know that
> >> there are some who hold a low opinion of BDAG, but
> I
> >> personally think
> >> it's very good. It does categorize the senses,
> it does
> >> indicate usage
> >> in terms of the time-range of Greek linguistic
> history, and
> >> it does
> >> present citations of and references to texts
> illustrative
> >> of the
> >> senses indicated.
> >>
> >> Carl W. Conrad
> >>
> >>> --- On Sun, 8/10/08, Carl Conrad
> >> <cwconrad2 at mac.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Carl Conrad
> <cwconrad2 at mac.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Lexical entries and
> >> "final meaning" -
> >>>> translation vs. understanding
> >>>> To: "John Wilking"
> >> <jcwilking at yahoo.com>
> >>>> Cc: "B-Greek B-Greek"
> >> <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> >>>> Date: Sunday, August 10, 2008, 5:25 PM
> >>>> Ideally, I would think our Koine Greek
> lexicon
> >> ought to have
> >>>> Koine
> >>>> Greek lemmata and Koine Greek definitions
> >> carefully
> >>>> categorized and
> >>>> subcategorized in the same fashion as any
> other
> >>>> same-language
> >>>> unabridged dictionary such as
> Webster's for
> >> American
> >>>> English, OED for
> >>>> British English, Larousse for French, etc.
> One
> >> ought to pay
> >>>> attention
> >>>> to the Diccionario Griego-Español as well
> >>>> (http://www.filol.csic.es/dge/index2.ht
> >>>> m). Particularly important in any of these
> is (a)
> >> the
> >>>> endeavor to be
> >>>> thorough (that endeavor will fail, but it
> ought
> >>>> nevertheless to be
> >>>> earnestly made), and (b) the citation of
> examples
> >> of the
> >>>> whole
> >>>> spectrum of usage with some clear
> indication of
> >> the era or
> >>>> time-span
> >>>> during which a cataloged usage is attested
> in the
> >> literary
> >>>> corpus.
> >>>>
> >>>> Carl W. Conrad
> >>>> Department of Classics, Washington
> University
> >> (Retired)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Aug 10, 2008, at 4:58 PM, John Wilking
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Carl,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Should we view other bilingual
> dictionaries
> >> the same
> >>>> way, e.g.
> >>>>> French/English or Chinese/English?  Or
> does
> >> BDAG do
> >>>> something
> >>>>> different because it is dealing with a
> dead
> >> language.
> >>>> I have for a
> >>>>> long time envisioned our NT lexicon as
> >> potentially
> >>>> becoming
> >>>>> identical with a First Century Koine
> >> Webster's, if
> >>>> we can imagine
> >>>>> finding such a book.
> >
> >
> >


      



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