[B-Greek] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ....
George F Somsel
gfsomsel at yahoo.com
Tue Aug 19 19:15:19 EDT 2008
I don't think ἔζησαν [EZHSAN] should be taken as an inceptive aorist. It is not that they "came to life" but rather that "they lived."
.
I also would not equate those who are here represented as having been beheaded with the martyrs of Re 6.9-11. In the throne vision which begins in chapter 4 we se the "crystal sea" before the throne and the bow as a nimbus around the head of "the one seated on the throne." This is a symbolic representation of the Flood where the "windows of heaven" were opened and God's bow was placed in the sky as a promise that a flood would never again destroy the earth. The use of ἶρις [IRIS] rather than τόξον [TOCON] as in the LXX of the Flood account is explicable by the necessity of distinguishing God's bow from that of the first of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse in chapter 6. Furthermore, 1 Enoch begins likewise with the Flood. This was something which was a part of the apocalyptic tradition. This provides the historical retrospect which some have claimed is missing from the Apocalypse. The martyrs of chapter 6 are thus those
who were persecuted prior to the Flood.
.
The 24 elders who sit on thrones are located in heaven as indeed everything is in the vision beginning with chapter 4. While everything in the vision takes place in heaven, some things are more in heaven than are other things, i.e., while the vision is viewed in heaven, some things in the vision are viewed as occurring in heaven while other things in the vision are viewed as taking place on earth. In the case of Re 20.4, it is preceeded by the notice in 20.1 that
.
Καὶ εἶδον ἄγγελον καταβαίνοντα ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ
KAI EIDON AGGELON KATABAINONTA EK TOU OURANOU
.
It is thereby signified that this takes place on earth whereas the 24 elders are in heaven. It is further stated that those who sat on the thrones had not taken upon themselves the mark of the Beast. It is thus the Church as a whole which lives although figuratively speaking they have been killed and these rule the earth.
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george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
_________
----- Original Message ----
From: Iver Larsen <iver_larsen at sil.org>
To: Jonathan Robie <jwrobie at mindspring.com>; B-Greek <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:14:34 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan Robie" <jwrobie at mindspring.com>
To: "B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: 19. august 2008 16:25
Subject: [B-Greek] Revelation 20:4: KAI confusion ....
>I think I misread this:
>
> 04 Καὶ εἶδον θρόνους,
> καὶ ἐκάθισαν ἐπ αὐτούς,
> καὶ κρίμα ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς,
> καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων διὰ τὴν μαρτυρίαν Ἰησοῦ καὶ διὰ τὸν
> λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ,
> καὶ οἵτινες οὐ προσεκύνησαν τὸ θηρίον οὐδὲ τὴν εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ καὶ οὐκ
> ἔλαβον τὸ χάραγμα ἐπὶ τὸ μέτωπον καὶ ἐπὶ τὴν χεῖρα αὐτῶν·
> καὶ ἔζησαν καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν μετὰ τοῦ Χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη.
>
> 04 KAI EIDON QRONOUS,
> KAI EKAQISAN EP AUTOUS,
> KAI KRIMA EDOQH AUTOIS,
> KAI TAS YUCAS TWN PEPELEKISMENWN DIA THN MARTURIAN IHSOU KAI DIA TON
> LOGON TOU QEOU,
> KAI hOITINES OU PROSEKUNHSAN TO QHRION OUDE THN EIKONA AUTOU KAI OUK
> ELABON TO CARAGMA EPI TO METWPON KAI EPI THN CEIRA AUTWN
> KAI EZHSAN KAI EBASILEUSAN META TOU CRISTOU CILIA ETH.
>
> He sees the thrones, and people seated on them, and they are given
> authority. καὶ τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (KAI TAS YUCAS TWN
> PEPELEKISMENWN) ....
>
> In my mind's eye, I associated these people with those seated on the
> thrones, since they were both plural and nobody had told me yet who was
> seated on the thrones (except that they had been given KRIMA). And I
> have to admit, I still get confused about how to read KAI in
> constructions like this. Is there anything in the language or context
> that should make it clear that τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πεπελεκισμένων (TAS YUCAS
> TWN PEPELEKISMENWN) are not the ones seated on the thrones?
>
> Jonathan
It does seem strange to me that these souls should sit down on thrones before they came to life -
EZHSAN.
Another option is to note that major participants in a book are often reintroduced simply by a
pronoun or pronominal ending - "They sat down on the thrones."
I checked to see when and where the author has mentioned thrones in plural before. It turns out that
these thrones are first introduced in Rev 4:4:
καὶ κυκλόθεν τοῦ θρόνου θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρες, καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους εἴκοσι τέσσαρας πρεσβυτέρους
καθημένους
KAI KUKLOQEN TOU QRONOU QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES, KAI EPI TOUS QRONOUS EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROUS
KAQHMENOUS.
So, we have 24 elders sitting on 24 thrones around the great throne.
The next reference to thrones in plural is 11:16:
καὶ οἱ εἴκοσι τέσσαρες πρεσβύτεροι [οἱ] ἐνώπιον τοῦ θεοῦ καθήμενοι ἐπὶ τοὺς θρόνους αὐτῶν ἔπεσαν ἐπὶ
τὰ πρόσωπα αὐτῶν καὶ προσεκύνησαν τῷ θεῷ
KAI hOI EIKOSI TESSARES PRESBUTEROI [hOI] ENWPION TOU QEOU KAQHMENOI EPI TOUS QRONOUS AUTWN EPESAN
EPI TA PROSWPA AUTWN KAI PROSEKUNHSAN TWi QEWi
Now the 24 elders go down from their thrones and prostrate themselves before God in worship.
The 24 elders again fall down in worship in 19:4. Then in 20:4 we have the fourth and final
reference to thrones in plural. John again sees those thrones and now some people sat down on the
thrones - EKAQISAN rather than KAQHMENOI - and they are given authority to judge.
From the overall context of the whole book, I therefore suggest that the unnamed people who take up
their place as judges/rulers on the thrones are the same 24 elders, who are major participants in
the visions from chapter 4 onwards. This does not exclude that all those other people who came alive
will take part in the rulership, probably under the directorship of the 24 elders, who again are
under the command of Jesus himself.
Iver Larsen
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