[B-Greek] John 8:40

Bert de Haan dehaanaf at gmail.com
Sat Feb 2 21:03:43 EST 2008


> From: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>
> To: "Gerhard H. Visscher" <ghvisscher at mountaincable.net>, <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 08:23:48 +0300
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:40
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerhard H. Visscher" <ghvisscher at mountaincable.net>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 2. februar 2008 03:53
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:40
>
>
> > Greetings.
> >
> > Rather puzzled by the Greek of part of John 8:40.  Most translations render
> > it something like: "As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has
> > told you the truth that I heard from God."  The difficulty is that "who has
> > told you" is first person singular (lelalaaka) rather than third (lelalaake)
> > as in the translations.  Or does this have something to do with the relative
> > pronoun and the "me" in the preceding phrase? Maybe I am overlooking
> > something obvious but none of the grammarians seem to say anything about
> > this.
> >
> > Thoughts on this would be helpful.
>
> It is a difference between English and Greek. The relative "who" in English is third person, but in
> Greek, it agrees with the person it refers to:
>
> Compare:
>
> Act 22:3-4 EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS...hOS TAUTHN THN hODON EDIWXA
>
> and 1 Cor 15:9, 2 Cor10:1, Rom 2:23.
>
> Think of the Greek relative as a fusion of a personal and relative pronoun: I-who, you-who, he-who
> etc.
> In a similar way, the Greek demonstrative is often a fusion of a demonstrative and a relative:
> that-which.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Cherney,Kenneth" <cherneyk at wls.wels.net>
> To: "Iver Larsen" <iver_larsen at sil.org>, "Gerhard H. Visscher" <ghvisscher at mountaincable.net>, <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 01:13:31 -0600
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:40
> Might it actually be the anthrwpon that confused Gerhard?  There likely would have been no problem had the English said, "You are seeking to kill me, [I] who have spoken the truth to you."  Translate anthrwpon, and this won't work.
> K. Cherney
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org on behalf of Iver Larsen
> Sent: Fri 2/1/2008 11:23 PM
> To: Gerhard H. Visscher; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:40
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gerhard H. Visscher" <ghvisscher at mountaincable.net>
> To: <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> Sent: 2. februar 2008 03:53
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] John 8:40
>
>
> > Greetings.
> >
> > Rather puzzled by the Greek of part of John 8:40.  Most translations render
> > it something like: "As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has
> > told you the truth that I heard from God."  The difficulty is that "who has
> > told you" is first person singular (lelalaaka) rather than third (lelalaake)
> > as in the translations.  Or does this have something to do with the relative
> > pronoun and the "me" in the preceding phrase? Maybe I am overlooking
> > something obvious but none of the grammarians seem to say anything about
> > this.
> >
> > Thoughts on this would be helpful.
>
> It is a difference between English and Greek. The relative "who" in English is third person, but in
> Greek, it agrees with the person it refers to:
>
> Compare:
>
> Act 22:3-4 EGW EIMI ANHR IOUDAIOS...hOS TAUTHN THN hODON EDIWXA
>
> and 1 Cor 15:9, 2 Cor10:1, Rom 2:23.
>
> Think of the Greek relative as a fusion of a personal and relative pronoun: I-who, you-who, he-who
> etc.
> In a similar way, the Greek demonstrative is often a fusion of a demonstrative and a relative:
> that-which.
>
> Iver Larsen
>
> ---
> B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
> B-Greek mailing list
> B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek

A while back I had the exact same question. I copied and pasted the
question and answer below. It may help.

Bert de Haan.
(Grand Valley Canadian Reformed Church.)

At 7:39 PM -0500 1/22/04, <bertdehaan at gosympatico.ca> wrote:
>NUN DE ZHTEITE ME APOKTEINAI ANQRWPON hOS THN ALHQEIAN hUMIN LELALHKA,
>
>"and now you seek to kill me, a man who has spoken the truth to you".
>This is how most translations translate this passage, and it makes good
>sense. My question is; Why is there a "mix-up" of persons,ie: ANQRWPON 3rd
>person,and the verb LELALHKA 1st person.

There's no real mix-up at all; the Greek follows its own logic. Although
Jesus could have said hOS ... LELALHKEN, he chooses to view ME as the
antecedent of hOS and therefore puts the verb in the first person. The
translations are adapted to more natural English.
-- 

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Emeritus)
1989 Grindstaff Road/Burnsville, NC 28714/(828) 675-4243
cwconrad at artsci.wustl.edu
WWW: http://www.ioa.com/~cwconrad/



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