[B-Greek] What is it between you and I?

Eric Inman eric.inman at wescorpflex.com
Thu Jul 3 09:53:19 EDT 2008


A little googling will show you that it's common for people to say "for we, the people," where "for" is the preposition, not the conjunction.

-Eric Inman 

-----Original Message-----
From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of Sarah Madden
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:52 AM
To: George F Somsel
Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?

George --
I'm not sure what the problem is with "We" in your example. Isn't "We the
people" in your example being used as the subject of the phrase below? Thus,
I would expect a nominative ("we") just as it already is. The skeleton of
the sentence (subject and verb) is "We ... do ordain and establish ..."

The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union,
establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common
defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to
ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for
the United States of America.
Sarah
sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
Maryland - U.S.A.


On 7/3/08, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Some of your examples do not appear to exhibit a nom following a
> preposition as you appear to be asserting.  I the case of Re 1.4 this is a
> special circumstance since it seems to be a "frozen expression" which is not
> changed due to its context.  Since the Fourth of July holiday is approaching
> here in the United States I have been reminded that the phrase "We the
> people" is frequently used when one would expect the "we" to be "us."
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "alexali at internode.on.net" <alexali at internode.on.net>
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:25:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
>
> Hi David,
>
> You shouldn't fear being shot - just point out that it *is* a Greek
> discussion.
>
> In your previous post you wrote,
>
> >Does "between you and I" sound odd to anyone else? It sounds completely
> normal to most people i hear today, including most preachers, but it still
> sounds odd to me. David McKay
>
> It doesn't sound odd to me, simply because I, too, heard it frequently
> enough, though that doesn't mean it is right.  By definition, "I" is a
> subject and so must be nominative and can't follow a preposition;  to say
> "between I and you" places the "I" after its preposition and probably would
> sound odd even to those who say "between you and I".
>
> But this is all pertinent to the Greek of the NT, in which we also
> occasionally "hear" a nominative after a preposition, e.g.
>
> εἷς κατὰ εἷς:
> •Mark 14:18  καὶ ἀνακειμένων αὐτῶν καὶ ἐσθιόντων ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν, Ἀμὴν λέγω
> ὑμῖν ὅτι εἷς ἐξ ὑμῶν παραδώσει με ὁ ἐσθίων μετ᾿ ἐμοῦ. 19  ἤρξαντο λυπεῖσθαι
> καὶ λέγειν αὐτῷ εἷς κατὰ εἷς, Μήτι ἐγώ;
> •John 8:9 οἱ δὲ ἀκούσαντες ἐξήρχοντο εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν
> πρεσβυτέρων ...  As G/Z, "εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς one by one, treated as indecl.
> (instead of εἷς καθ᾿ ἕνα)."
>
> Rev 1:4 Ἰωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη
> ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ ἐρχόμενος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ
> θρόνου αὐτοῦ
>
> Colossians 2:1 Θέλω γὰρ ὑμᾶς εἰδέναι ἡλίκον ἀγῶνα ἔχω ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καὶ τῶν ἐν
> Λαοδικείᾳ καὶ ὅσοι οὐχ ἑόρακαν τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἐν σαρκί, G/Z 'ὅσοι = ποσῶν
> ὅσοι all who, all the others who (καί being inclusive of foregoing).'
>
> καθ᾿ εἷς:
> Romans 12:5 οὕτως οἱ πολλοὶ ἓν σῶμά ἐσμεν ἐν Χριστῷ, τὸ δὲ καθ᾿ εἷς ἀλλήλων
> μέλη.
>
> The following example is not quite the same, as Grosvenor/Zerwick's comment
> points out:
>
> Used adverbially:
> 2Co 11:23 διάκονοι Χριστοῦ εἰσιν; παραφρονῶν λαλῶ, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ· ἐν κόποις
> περισσοτέρως, ἐν φυλακαῖς περισσοτέρως, ἐν πληγαῖς ὑπερβαλλόντως, ἐν
> θανάτοις πολλάκις. G/Z "ὑπέρ retaining its orig. advl force, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ 'I
> (go) beyond', I surpass them, I more so."
>
> I wonder whether those who originally heard these would have had a sense of
> "oddness" about the language.  In the case of εἷς κατὰ εἷς and of καθ᾿
> εἷς  I suspect not, but that these had become perfectly normal patterns of
> speech, just as "between you and I" has become.  (And, just between you and
> me, I reckon that within a few years no-one will give it a second
> thought.  How I remember the outrage I felt as a young man when I heard
> someone use "impact" as a verb, in violation of our noble tongue - didn't
> they know it was a noun?!  But on rare occasions these days I gulp to hear
> myself use the word as a verb, and I simply don't bother to teach my
> children or my students otherwise.)
>
> Alex Hopkins
> Melbourne, Australia
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
> b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of David McKay
> Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2008 12:06 PM
> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
>
>
> I hope I won't get shot for beginning and continuing this non-Greek
> discussion. I think that the use of "I" for "me" may have originally been
> because people were often told to say "I" and not "me" but I don't think
> this is the reason that young people [and older people] say "between you and
> I" today.
>
> When I have attempted to discuss this with people, I have been told that
> "you and me" is always wrong. It now sounds odd to people. And it was a 59
> year old who told me this.
>
> David McKay
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>
>
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-- 
Sarah
sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
work: 301.429.8189
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