[B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
Carl Conrad
cwconrad2 at mac.com
Thu Jul 3 12:08:38 EDT 2008
On Jul 3, 2008, at 9:53 AM, Eric Inman wrote:
> A little googling will show you that it's common for people to say
> "for we, the people," where "for" is the preposition, not the
> conjunction.
I found it (http://tinyurl.com/35cp8r), but the way I read it this is
not an instance of "we" as the object of a preposition; rather it is a
matter of being FOR the U.S. Constitution and the principle embodied
in its preamble, which begins with the words, "We the people of the
United States ... " This is NOT an affirmation of some principle of
using "we" as the object of a preposition.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org
> ] On Behalf Of Sarah Madden
> Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 7:52 AM
> To: George F Somsel
> Cc: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
>
> George --
> I'm not sure what the problem is with "We" in your example. Isn't
> "We the
> people" in your example being used as the subject of the phrase
> below? Thus,
> I would expect a nominative ("we") just as it already is. The
> skeleton of
> the sentence (subject and verb) is "We ... do ordain and
> establish ..."
>
> The Constitution of the United States of America
>
> We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
> union,
> establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common
> defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of
> liberty to
> ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this
> Constitution for
> the United States of America.
> Sarah
> sarah.r.madden at gmail.com
> Maryland - U.S.A.
>
>
> On 7/3/08, George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Some of your examples do not appear to exhibit a nom following a
>> preposition as you appear to be asserting. I the case of Re 1.4
>> this is a
>> special circumstance since it seems to be a "frozen expression"
>> which is not
>> changed due to its context. Since the Fourth of July holiday is
>> approaching
>> here in the United States I have been reminded that the phrase "We
>> the
>> people" is frequently used when one would expect the "we" to be "us."
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: "alexali at internode.on.net" <alexali at internode.on.net>
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 11:25:33 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> You shouldn't fear being shot - just point out that it *is* a Greek
>> discussion.
>>
>> In your previous post you wrote,
>>
>>> Does "between you and I" sound odd to anyone else? It sounds
>>> completely
>> normal to most people i hear today, including most preachers, but
>> it still
>> sounds odd to me. David McKay
>>
>> It doesn't sound odd to me, simply because I, too, heard it
>> frequently
>> enough, though that doesn't mean it is right. By definition, "I"
>> is a
>> subject and so must be nominative and can't follow a preposition;
>> to say
>> "between I and you" places the "I" after its preposition and
>> probably would
>> sound odd even to those who say "between you and I".
>>
>> But this is all pertinent to the Greek of the NT, in which we also
>> occasionally "hear" a nominative after a preposition, e.g.
>>
>> εἷς κατὰ εἷς:
>> •Mark 14:18 καὶ ἀνακειμένων αὐτῶν καὶ
>> ἐσθιόντων ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν, Ἀμὴν
>> λέγω
>> ὑμῖν ὅτι εἷς ἐξ ὑμῶν παραδώσει με
>> ὁ ἐσθίων μετ᾿ ἐμοῦ. 19 ἤρξαντο
>> λυπεῖσθαι
>> καὶ λέγειν αὐτῷ εἷς κατὰ εἷς,
>> Μήτι ἐγώ;
>> •John 8:9 οἱ δὲ ἀκούσαντες ἐξήρχοντο
>> εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς ἀρξάμενοι ἀπὸ τῶν
>> πρεσβυτέρων ... As G/Z, "εἷς καθ᾿ εἷς one
>> by one, treated as indecl.
>> (instead of εἷς καθ᾿ ἕνα)."
>>
>> Rev 1:4 Ἰωάννης ταῖς ἑπτὰ ἐκκλησίαις
>> ταῖς ἐν τῇ Ἀσίᾳ· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ
>> εἰρήνη
>> ἀπὸ ὁ ὢν καὶ ὁ ἦν καὶ ὁ
>> ἐρχόμενος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ἑπτὰ
>> πνευμάτων ἃ ἐνώπιον τοῦ
>> θρόνου αὐτοῦ
>>
>> Colossians 2:1 Θέλω γὰρ ὑμᾶς εἰδέναι
>> ἡλίκον ἀγῶνα ἔχω ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν καὶ
>> τῶν ἐν
>> Λαοδικείᾳ καὶ ὅσοι οὐχ ἑόρακαν
>> τὸ πρόσωπόν μου ἐν σαρκί, G/Z 'ὅσοι =
>> ποσῶν
>> ὅσοι all who, all the others who (καί being inclusive of
>> foregoing).'
>>
>> καθ᾿ εἷς:
>> Romans 12:5 οὕτως οἱ πολλοὶ ἓν σῶμά
>> ἐσμεν ἐν Χριστῷ, τὸ δὲ καθ᾿ εἷς
>> ἀλλήλων
>> μέλη.
>>
>> The following example is not quite the same, as Grosvenor/Zerwick's
>> comment
>> points out:
>>
>> Used adverbially:
>> 2Co 11:23 διάκονοι Χριστοῦ εἰσιν;
>> παραφρονῶν λαλῶ, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ· ἐν
>> κόποις
>> περισσοτέρως, ἐν φυλακαῖς
>> περισσοτέρως, ἐν πληγαῖς
>> ὑπερβαλλόντως, ἐν
>> θανάτοις πολλάκις. G/Z "ὑπέρ retaining its
>> orig. advl force, ὑπὲρ ἐγώ 'I
>> (go) beyond', I surpass them, I more so."
>>
>> I wonder whether those who originally heard these would have had a
>> sense of
>> "oddness" about the language. In the case of εἷς κατὰ
>> εἷς and of καθ᾿
>> εἷς I suspect not, but that these had become perfectly normal
>> patterns of
>> speech, just as "between you and I" has become. (And, just between
>> you and
>> me, I reckon that within a few years no-one will give it a second
>> thought. How I remember the outrage I felt as a young man when I
>> heard
>> someone use "impact" as a verb, in violation of our noble tongue -
>> didn't
>> they know it was a noun?! But on rare occasions these days I gulp
>> to hear
>> myself use the word as a verb, and I simply don't bother to teach my
>> children or my students otherwise.)
>>
>> Alex Hopkins
>> Melbourne, Australia
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org [mailto:
>> b-greek-bounces at lists.ibiblio.org] On Behalf Of David McKay
>> Sent: Thursday, 3 July 2008 12:06 PM
>> To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] What is it between you and I?
>>
>>
>> I hope I won't get shot for beginning and continuing this non-Greek
>> discussion. I think that the use of "I" for "me" may have
>> originally been
>> because people were often told to say "I" and not "me" but I don't
>> think
>> this is the reason that young people [and older people] say
>> "between you and
>> I" today.
>>
>> When I have attempted to discuss this with people, I have been told
>> that
>> "you and me" is always wrong. It now sounds odd to people. And it
>> was a 59
>> year old who told me this.
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