[B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27

Bryant J. Williams III bjwvmw at com-pair.net
Thu Mar 6 18:23:30 EST 2008


Dear Elizabeth,

Thanks for your reply.

Now, I still have several questions or observations.

1.   I wonder if APO + gen. and EK + gen are becoming interchangeable?
The reason I ask is that Matthew seems to be using APO + gen. in a Semitic
manner (Albert Pietersma, Ken Penner or Randall Buth could probably elaborate
more), while John is incorporating more Hellenistic philosophical use of terms
especially EK + gen. I could be way off, I do not know, but I trying to think
outside the box a little to get a handle on it.

2.    Hans Jonas, The Gnostic Religion: the Message Of the Alien God and the
Begnnings of Chrisitanity, Boston: Beacon Press, 1958. In his introduction to
the book Hans Jonas discusses the conditions before and after the conquest of
Alexander the Great in both the East and the West and what those terms "East"
and "West" meant before, at the time and after Alexander, the Roman Empire and
the Byzantine Empires including the Greek Church.

    "Major Manifestations of the Oriental Wave in the Hellenistic World.
        We have now to give a brief enumeration of the phenomena in which the
oriental wave manifest itself in he Hellenistic world from the about the
beginning of the Christian era onward. They are in the main as follows: the
spread of Hellenistic Judaism, and especially the rise of Alexandrian Jewish
philosophy; the spread of Babylonian astrology and of magic, coinciding with a
general growth of fatalism in the Westen world; the spread of diverse Eastern
mystery-cults over the Hellenistic-Roman world, and their evolution into
spiritual mystery-religions; the rise of Christianity; the efflorescence of the
gnostic movements with their great system-formations inside and outside the
Christian framework; and the transcendental philosophies of late antiquity,
beginning with Neo-pythagoeanism and culminating in the Neoplatonic school.

    All these phenomena, diferrent as they are, are in a broad sense
interrelated. Their teachings have important points in common even in their
divergences share in a common climate of thought; the literature of each can
supplement our understanding of the others. More obvious than kinship of
spiritual substance is he recurrence of typical patterns of expression, specific
images and formulas, throughout the literature of the whole group. In Philo of
Alexandria we encounter, besides the Platonic and Stoci elements with which the
Jewish core is overlaid, also the language of the mystery-cults and the
incipient terminology of a new mysticism. The mystery-religions on their part
have strong relations to the stral complex of ideas. Neoplationism is wide open
to all pagan, eand especially Eastern, religions lore having a pretense to
antiqiuty and a halo of spirituality. Christianity, even in its "orthodox"
utterances, had from the outset (certainly as early as St. Puaul) syncretistic
aspects, far exceeded however in this respect by its heretical offshoots; the
gnostic systems compouned everything-oreiental mythologies, astrological
doctrines, Iranian theology, elements of Jewish tradition, whether Biblical,
rabbinical, or occult, Christian salvation-eschatology, Platonic terms and
concepts. Syncretism attatined in this period its greatest efficacy. it was no
longer confined to specific cults and the concern of their priests but pervaded
the whole thought of the age and showed itself in all provinces of literary
expressions. Thus, none of the phenomena we have enumerated can be considered
apart from the rest."    (pages 24-25)

3.    The above quote is quite lengthy, but I gave it to make sure that the
context of the period of the Hellenistic Age is understood since it was
overpowered by the ancient religions of the East when they took on the Greek
(including philosophical terms and expressions) of Alexander (Koine) and imbued
that same Greek with meanings and expressions from their own thought patterns
and expressions that are often overlooked.

4.    Thus, my question, Does the use of APO + gen. and EK + gen actually
reflect not only the audience to which it is written, but also the age,
philosophy, worldview and subject matter of the author?

5.    The use in Daniel 3:88 is instructive of the Apocryphal addition to Daniel
since it is not reflected in the Aramaic portion of Daniel. My copy of the LXX
only goes to 3:33.

En Xristwi,

Rev. Bryant J. Williams III

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth Kline" <kline_dekooning at earthlink.net>
To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27


>
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
>
> > Dear Elizabeth,
> >
> > I wonder if some of the problem is due to the possible
> > Alexandrian/Hellenistic/Diaspora background in comparison to straight
> > Hellenistic background in the use of APO + gen. and EK + gen.? I
> > ask this
> > considering the obvious use of the LXX in the Epistle to the
> > Hebrews versus that
> > of the obvious Semitic/Asian background (if one postulates that
> > John was written
> > in Ephesus).
>
> Bryant,
>
> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI, KAI TI EIPW; PATER, SWSON ME
> EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; ALLA DIA TOUTO HLQON EIS THN hWRAN TAUTHN.
>
> It seems to me that the substitution of APO THS hWRAS TAUTHS for EK
> THS hWRAS TAUTHS would completely alter the meaning, APO THS hWRAS
> TAUTHS would be taken as a temporal expression as in Mat. 9:22b
>
> MATT. 9:22b. KAI ESWQH hH GUNH APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> see also:
>
> MATT. 15:28  KAI IAQH hH QUGATHR AUTHS APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> MATT. 17:18  KAI EQERAPEUQH hO PAIS APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> MATT. 27:45 APO DE hEKTHS hWRAS SKOTOS EGENETO EPI PASAN THN GHN hEWS
> hWRAS ENATHS.
>
> JOHN 19:27 EITA LEGEI TWi MAQHTHi: IDE hH MHTHR SOU. KAI AP' EKEINHS
> THS hWRAS ELABEN hO MAQHTHS AUTHN EIS TA IDIA.
>
> ACTS 23:23 KAI hIPPEIS hEBDOMHKONTA KAI DEXIOLABOUS DIAKOSIOUS APO
> TRITHS hWRAS THS NUKTOS,
>
> On the other hand, SWZW/SAOW + EK is found in the AF
>
> 1CLEM. 11:1 DIA FILOXENIAN KAI EUSEBEIAN LWT ESWQH EK SODOMWN
>
> Also numerous times in the LXX with the form SWSEI ... EK CEIROS
>
> DAN. 3:88 EULOGEITE ANANIA AZARIA MISAHL TON KURION hUMNEITE KAI
> hUPERUYOUTE AUTON EIS TOUS AIWNAS hOTI EXEILETO hHMAS EX hAiDOU KAI
> ESWSEN hHMAS EK CEIROS QANATOU KAI ERRUSATO hHMAS EK MESOU KAIOMENHS
> FLOGOS KAI EK TOU PUROS ELUTRWSATO hHMAS
>
> Here ESWSEN hHMAS EK CEIROS QANATOU clearly means to cause one to
> avoid the experience of death but in the next two clauses ERRUSATO/
> ELUTRWSATO + EK + gen. means something like: to rescue one from the
> midst of a dangerous experience.
>
> I am not sure that Westcott's (John 1881) argument can stand up to
> close scrutiny but it is a question worth pondering even if the 20th
> century English commentators mostly disagree with him.
>
> Elizabeth Kline
>
> >
> > En Xristwi,
> >
> > Rev. Bryant J. Williams III
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Elizabeth Kline"
> > To: "greek B-Greek" <b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 1:48 PM
> > Subject: [B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27
> >
> >
> >> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI, KAI TI EIPW; PATER, SWSON ME
> >> EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; ALLA DIA TOUTO HLQON EIS THN hWRAN TAUTHN.
> >>
> >> B.F.Westcott (John 1881) claims that the a number of commentators
> >> have misconstrued the meaning of Jesus prayer PATER, SWSON ME EK THS
> >> hWRAS TAUTHS. According to Westcott SWSON ME EK does not mean deliver
> >> me from having to experience "this hour" but rather deliver me out of
> >> the experience (awkward English). He wasn't the first to suggest this
> >> (see H.Alford). Westcott states that EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS should not
> >> be read as if it were APO THS hWRAS TAUTHS.
> >>
> >> Here are some samples of SWZW + EK in the NT.
> >>
> >> HEB. 5:7 hOS EN TAIS hHMERAIS THS SARKOS AUTOU DEHSEIS TE KAI
> >> hIKETHRIAS PROS TON DUNAMENON SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU META KRAUGHS
> >> ISCURAS KAI DAKRUWN PROSENEGKAS KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS,
> >>
> >> JAMES 5:20 GINWSKETW hOTI hO EPISTREYAS hAMARTWLON EK PLANHS hODOU
> >> AUTOU SWSEI YUCHN AUTOU EK QANATOU KAI KALUYEI PLHQOS hAMARTIWN.
> >>
> >> JUDE 5 hUPOMNHSAI DE hUMAS BOULOMAI, EIDOTAS [hUMAS] PANTA hOTI [hO]
> >> KURIOS hAPAX LAON EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS TO DEUTERON TOUS MH
> >> PISTEUSANTAS APWLESEN,
> >>
> >> Perhaps Jude 5 EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS lends some support to Westcott's
> >> (John 1881) reading of SWSON ... EK in  JOHN 12:27. However, HEB. 5:7
> >> is also a difficult text and Westcott (Hebrews 1891) seems to back
> >> off a little from his statements in the John commentary. He appears
> >> to admit two ways of reading SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU in HEB. 5:7:
> >> "The phrase covers two distinct ideas, 'to save from physical death
> >> so that it should be escaped,'to  bring safe out of death into a new
> >> life.' In the first sense the prayer recorded in John xii.27 was not
> >> granted, that it might be granted in the second." The first reading
> >> 'to save from physical death so that it should be escaped' runs into
> >> trouble at the end of verse 7: KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS.
> >> (See also Ellingworth Hebrews NIGTC p.288, Koester AB p.288.)  In
> >> what sense were Jesus prayers and petitions heard if he was asking to
> >> escape the experience of "physical death"[1]?
> >>
> >> On the semantic distinction between APO + gen. and EK + gen. it seems
> >> that there is some overlap in NT usage. I am not certain how much
> >> weight we should place on this distinction.
> >>
> >> Elizabeth Kline
> >>
> >> [1] 120 years after Westcott's Hebrews the expression "physical
> >> death" seems to exclude some very real aspects of Jesus suffering and
> >> death, and what he might have been wishing to avoid if indeed he is
> >> asking to avoid here as in the prayer in the garden.]
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
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