[B-Greek] SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27
Elizabeth Kline
kline_dekooning at earthlink.net
Sat Mar 8 15:54:55 EST 2008
On Mar 6, 2008, at 4:32 PM, Eric Inman wrote:
> Elizabeth,
>
> My impression is that SWSON ME EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS in John 12:27
> does mean
> "deliver me out of this experience", but that the experience
> referred to is
> not death but rather "this hour," which will eventually include
> death but
> includes other things before it as well. I believe that Jesus is
> speaking
> from the standpoint of being within "this hour," (NUN hH YUCH MOU
> TETARAKTAI, for example) rather than referring to something that
> starts in
> the future.
>
> Do you think this is a possibility?
>
> Eric Inman
>
Eric,
I have no problem with that. But that isn't the issue in dispute. Two
questions are raised. Should PATER, SWSON ME EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; be
punctuated as an interrogative? Does SWSON ME EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS
imply avoidance of THS hWRAS TAUTHS? Is Jesus praying to be spared
the still future suffering and death?
On the first question (punctuation) Alford, Westcott and Beasley-
Murray, Robinson-Pierpont agree that PATER, SWSON ME EK THS hWRAS
TAUTHS is a real prayer not a question. However on the the second
question, Beasley-Murray and many others disagree with Alford and
Westcott by reading SWSON ME EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS as a request to be
spared the still future suffering and death.
That is the question under discussion. However, your point is well
taken and it is relevant but I don't think anyone would argue with it.
Elizabeth Kline
On Mar 6, 2008, at 1:07 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mar 5, 2008, at 2:34 PM, Bryant J. Williams III wrote:
>
>> Dear Elizabeth,
>>
>> I wonder if some of the problem is due to the possible
>> Alexandrian/Hellenistic/Diaspora background in comparison to straight
>> Hellenistic background in the use of APO + gen. and EK + gen.? I
>> ask this
>> considering the obvious use of the LXX in the Epistle to the
>> Hebrews versus that
>> of the obvious Semitic/Asian background (if one postulates that
>> John was written
>> in Ephesus).
>
> Bryant,
>
> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI, KAI TI EIPW; PATER, SWSON ME
> EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; ALLA DIA TOUTO HLQON EIS THN hWRAN TAUTHN.
>
> It seems to me that the substitution of APO THS hWRAS TAUTHS for EK
> THS hWRAS TAUTHS would completely alter the meaning, APO THS hWRAS
> TAUTHS would be taken as a temporal expression as in Mat. 9:22b
>
> MATT. 9:22b. KAI ESWQH hH GUNH APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> see also:
>
> MATT. 15:28 KAI IAQH hH QUGATHR AUTHS APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> MATT. 17:18 KAI EQERAPEUQH hO PAIS APO THS hWRAS EKEINHS.
>
> MATT. 27:45 APO DE hEKTHS hWRAS SKOTOS EGENETO EPI PASAN THN GHN hEWS
> hWRAS ENATHS.
>
> JOHN 19:27 EITA LEGEI TWi MAQHTHi: IDE hH MHTHR SOU. KAI AP' EKEINHS
> THS hWRAS ELABEN hO MAQHTHS AUTHN EIS TA IDIA.
>
> ACTS 23:23 KAI hIPPEIS hEBDOMHKONTA KAI DEXIOLABOUS DIAKOSIOUS APO
> TRITHS hWRAS THS NUKTOS,
>
> On the other hand, SWZW/SAOW + EK is found in the AF
>
> 1CLEM. 11:1 DIA FILOXENIAN KAI EUSEBEIAN LWT ESWQH EK SODOMWN
>
> Also numerous times in the LXX with the form SWSEI ... EK CEIROS
>
> DAN. 3:88 EULOGEITE ANANIA AZARIA MISAHL TON KURION hUMNEITE KAI
> hUPERUYOUTE AUTON EIS TOUS AIWNAS hOTI EXEILETO hHMAS EX hAiDOU KAI
> ESWSEN hHMAS EK CEIROS QANATOU KAI ERRUSATO hHMAS EK MESOU KAIOMENHS
> FLOGOS KAI EK TOU PUROS ELUTRWSATO hHMAS
>
> Here ESWSEN hHMAS EK CEIROS QANATOU clearly means to cause one to
> avoid the experience of death but in the next two clauses ERRUSATO/
> ELUTRWSATO + EK + gen. means something like: to rescue one from the
> midst of a dangerous experience.
>
> I am not sure that Westcott's (John 1881) argument can stand up to
> close scrutiny but it is a question worth pondering even if the 20th
> century English commentators mostly disagree with him.
>
> On Mar 5, 2008, at 1:48 PM, Elizabeth Kline wrote:
>
>> JOHN 12:27 NUN hH YUCH MOU TETARAKTAI, KAI TI EIPW; PATER, SWSON ME
>> EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS; ALLA DIA TOUTO HLQON EIS THN hWRAN TAUTHN.
>>
>> B.F.Westcott (John 1881) claims that the a number of commentators
>> have misconstrued the meaning of Jesus prayer PATER, SWSON ME EK THS
>> hWRAS TAUTHS. According to Westcott SWSON ME EK does not mean deliver
>> me from having to experience "this hour" but rather deliver me out of
>> the experience (awkward English). He wasn't the first to suggest this
>> (see H.Alford). Westcott states that EK THS hWRAS TAUTHS should not
>> be read as if it were APO THS hWRAS TAUTHS.
>>
>> Here are some samples of SWZW + EK in the NT.
>>
>> HEB. 5:7 hOS EN TAIS hHMERAIS THS SARKOS AUTOU DEHSEIS TE KAI
>> hIKETHRIAS PROS TON DUNAMENON SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU META KRAUGHS
>> ISCURAS KAI DAKRUWN PROSENEGKAS KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS,
>>
>> JAMES 5:20 GINWSKETW hOTI hO EPISTREYAS hAMARTWLON EK PLANHS hODOU
>> AUTOU SWSEI YUCHN AUTOU EK QANATOU KAI KALUYEI PLHQOS hAMARTIWN.
>>
>> JUDE 5 hUPOMNHSAI DE hUMAS BOULOMAI, EIDOTAS [hUMAS] PANTA hOTI [hO]
>> KURIOS hAPAX LAON EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS TO DEUTERON TOUS MH
>> PISTEUSANTAS APWLESEN,
>>
>> Perhaps Jude 5 EK GHS AIGUPTOU SWSAS lends some support to Westcott's
>> (John 1881) reading of SWSON ... EK in JOHN 12:27. However, HEB. 5:7
>> is also a difficult text and Westcott (Hebrews 1891) seems to back
>> off a little from his statements in the John commentary. He appears
>> to admit two ways of reading SWiZEIN AUTON EK QANATOU in HEB. 5:7:
>> "The phrase covers two distinct ideas, 'to save from physical death
>> so that it should be escaped,'to bring safe out of death into a new
>> life.' In the first sense the prayer recorded in John xii.27 was not
>> granted, that it might be granted in the second." The first reading
>> 'to save from physical death so that it should be escaped' runs into
>> trouble at the end of verse 7: KAI EISAKOUSQEIS APO THS EULABEIAS.
>> (See also Ellingworth Hebrews NIGTC p.288, Koester AB p.288.) In
>> what sense were Jesus prayers and petitions heard if he was asking to
>> escape the experience of "physical death"[1]?
>>
>> On the semantic distinction between APO + gen. and EK + gen. it seems
>> that there is some overlap in NT usage. I am not certain how much
>> weight we should place on this distinction.
>>
>> Elizabeth Kline
>>
>> [1] 120 years after Westcott's Hebrews the expression "physical
>> death" seems to exclude some very real aspects of Jesus suffering and
>> death, and what he might have been wishing to avoid if indeed he is
>> asking to avoid here as in the prayer in the garden.]
>>
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