[B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
Albert Pietersma
albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Sun Mar 9 03:10:58 EDT 2008
On Mar 8, 2008, at 8:19 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
> The point was not regarding whether APEXW was used in Rom 1.24 but
> rather that the acc was used as the obj of the articular inf.
Though it might be argued that in Greek the subject of an infinitive
is in the accusative, it cannot be said that the object of an
infinitive is in the accusative.
> If you wish to stick to APEXW, then there are examples of that as
> well. In 1 Thess 4.3 we do find APEXW as a simple inf without an
> article with the preposition APO following as you suggest
>
> Τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ, ὁ
> ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς
> ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας
> TOUTO GAR ESTIN QELHMA TOU QEOU, hO hAGIASMOS hUMWN, APEXESQAI
> hUMAS APO THS PORNEIAS
Sorry, George, hUMAS is the subject of APEXESQAI, not its object.
That was my precisely my point about your suggested ME in Ezek 8:6,
i.e. ME would have to be subject of APEXESQAI, not its object.
>
>
> In Acts 15.20, on the other hand, the articular inf of APEXW is
> used with a simple genitive without a preposition
>
> ἀλλὰ ἐπιστεῖλαι αὐτοῖς τοῦ
> ἀπέχεσθαι τῶν ἀλισγημάτων τῶν
> εἰδώλων καὶ τῆς πορνείας καὶ τοῦ
> πνικτοῦ καὶ τοῦ αἵματος.
> ALLA EPISTEILAI AUTOIS TOU APEXESQAI TWN hALISGHMATW TWN EIDWLWN
> KAI THS PORNEIAS KAI TOU PNIKTOU KAI TOU hAIMATOS.
As in Ezek 8:6 the subject of the infinitive has the same referent
as the subject of POIOUSIN and thus is not reissued with TOU
APESESQAI, so here subject of the infinitive has the same referent as
AUTOIS and thus is not reissued with TOU APESQAI.
In both Acts 15.20 and Ezek 8:6, the form would have been accusative
(AUTOUS) if it had been reissued for some reason.
>
>
> In the LXX, however, I think we have a somewhat different situation
> since it is translation Greek.
Are you suggesting that we conclude to translationese, just because
it fits the source text? And while the usage is without attestation
in non-translation literature?
Al (herewith signing off on this discussion)
>
> In Targum Jonathan to the Prophets this is rendered by an Ethpaal
> which is a causative which is why I would suggest that in the
> Hebrew it should be understood as a Piel since that is likewise a
> causative. The Greek translation does appear to attempt to
> reproduce the Hebrew rather mechanically, and the Aramaic of the
> Targum would seem to indicate a causative which would be one
> understanding to the significance of the use of the articular inf
> in the LXX. Just as the Hebrew does not specifically mention YHWH
> as the object (or the pronoun "me") so the Greek lacks it as well.
> As with the examples cited from the NT, the object FROM WHICH
> separation is contemplated is expressed by the use of the
> preposition APO + the gen (though, as was shown, it could also have
> been expressed by a simple genitive). Since the one who is to be
> "sent away" is not mentioned, there is no use of either an acc of
> object nor of APO + pronoun.
>
> george
> gfsomsel
>
> … search for truth, hear truth,
> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
> defend the truth till death.
>
>
> - Jan Hus
> _________
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 6:05:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2008, at 4:32 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> While it is true that 11.15 and 22.5 use APEXW and do not have a
>> causative sense, neither of them are in a genitive of the
>> articular infinitive construction. The first sing pronoun as the
>> object of the infinitive would be in the accusative. See Rom 1.24
>>
>> Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς ἐν
>> ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν
>> αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ
>> ἀτιμάζεσθαι ** τὰ σώματα ** αὐτῶν
>> ἐν αὐτοῖς·
>> DIO PAREDWKEN AUTOIS hO QEOS EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS TWN KARDIWN AUTWN
>> EIS AKAQARSIAN TOU ATIMAZESQAI ** TA SWMATA ** AUTWN EN AUTOIS
> But, George, I don't see APEXESQAI being used in Rom 1:24.
> Moreover, are you suggesting that a given verb when used in a TOU +
> Inf construction suddenly take a different object than it otherwise
> does?
>>
>> Since the two instances of the verbs ποιοῦσιν [POIOUSIN]
>> immediately preceding in the sentence are 3rd pl, I would expect
>> that the subject of ἀπέχεσθαι [APEXESQAI] to likewise be
>> 3rd pl making the understood ME the object.
>
> That presupposes, does it not, that APEXOMAI (a) means something
> like "drive away" and that as such (b) it has its direct object in
> the accusative. Neither would seem to be the case. APEXOMAI
> commonly means "to keep oneself away," and when it is specified
> what one keeps oneself away from, we find a genitive or an APO
> phrase, as in fact we have in 8:6. Thus if 8:6 is to mean "they
> keep themselves away FROM ME from my holy things" would we not
> need . . . TOU APEXESQAI (APO) EMOU APO TWN hAGIWN MOY?
> What am I missing?
> Al
>
>>
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 2:00:45 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>>
>> I wonder, George. While it is true that Iezek often renders the sg.
>> of MQDS by a neuter plural, at times (e.g. 11.16; 45:4, 18; 48:8, 21)
>> he uses a singular term. That would seem to suggest that when he
>> uses the plural he has in mind a bit more than a given spot. In any
>> case, the plural reference includes, I should think, the entire
>> complex of structutes (precincts), including the paraphernalia.
>> You are right, Iezek 8:6 is somewhat ambiguous on this score, given
>> APEXOMAI. For its other uses in Iezek see 11:15 and 22:5, neither one
>> of which, as one would expect, is causative. Therefore if ME is to be
>> supplied in 8:6 it would have to be as subject, not object (which in
>> any case would not be accusative). But to presuppose a switch in
>> subject, from the main verb, would be rather odd, the more since no
>> discrete pronoun is supplied in the subordinate clause.
>> Ergo, I still think Noel did the right thing, and in fact was
>> circumspect in using "holy things" rather than "holy place", as he
>> sometimes does elsewhere.
>> Al
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2008, at 12:22 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>> > You have caused a small amount of confusion by your subject heading
>> > of "Ezek 6:6" when it is actually 8.6. I have adjusted it
>> > accordingly.
>> >
>> > καὶ εἶπεν πρός με Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου,
>> > ἑώρακας τί οὗτοι ποιοῦσιν; ἀνομίας
>> > μεγάλας ποιοῦσιν ὧδε τοῦ
>> > ἀπέχεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἁγίων μου, καὶ
>> > ἔτι ὄψει ἀνομίας μείζονας.
>> >
>> >
>> > KAI EIPEN PROS ME, "hUIE ANQRWPOU, hEWRAKAS TI hOUTOI POIOUSIN?
>> > ANOMIAS MEGALAS POIOUSIN hWDE TOU APEXESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU,
>> > OYEI ANOMIAS MEIZONAS."
>> >
>> > While the LXX must ultimately be understood on its own, it is
>> > sometimes helpful to take a look at the Hebrew upon which it is
>> > based. While the text here referenced is translated from the
>> > Hebrew largely as "to drive me from", which would seem to be the
>> > piel form. The verb here in its basic form (qal), which is
>> > generally indicated, is simply "to be distant." In the piel form
>> > it becomes "to send away." Since the verb is what is known in
>> > Hebrew grammar as a II gutteral or `ayin gutteral, which means that
>> > the second radical is a gutteral, it is conceivable that it could
>> > be a piel form since the gutteral rejects the dagesh which is one
>> > of the distinguishing marks of the piel.
>> >
>> > The Greek seems not to have a causative connotation. The genitive
>> > of the articular infinitive which we see in τοῦ
>> > ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] would indicate a final or
>> > causative event. The μου [MOU] must most reasonably be
>> construed
>> > with τῶν ἁγίων [TWN hAGIWN], which is another problem
>> with
>> > the LXX of this verse since it is singular in Hebrew, but this
>> > seems to not be uncommon in the LXX. I would think that it would
>> > better have been translated as "my Holy Place" and to understand
>> > τοῦ ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] in a causative sense
>> > supplying με [ME] which is not specified in the Greek as the
>> > object of the phrase. Thus understood, the LXX reading would yield
>> > much the same as the traditional reading of the MT.
>> >
>> > george
>> > gfsomsel
>> >
>> > … search for truth, hear truth,
>> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> > defend the truth till death.
>> >
>> >
>> > - Jan Hus
>> > _________
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----
>> > From: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>
>> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 10:27:37 AM
>> > Subject: [B-Greek] Ezek 6:6
>> >
>> > NETS translates the central passage in Ezek 8:6 as
>> > "they are committing great acts of lawlessness here by
>> > keeping themselves far from my holy things" (hWDE TOU
>> > APECESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU). Given the context --
>> > God is about to leave the temple -- I think, this does
>> > not make sense. Is there some pressing grammatical
>> > reason for changing "so that I [that is, God] should
>> > keep away ..." into what the NETS version offers?
>> >
>> > Bogdan Bucur
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> > B-Greek mailing list
>> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> _
>> > ______________
>> > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
>> > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>> > ---
>> > B-Greek home page: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek
>> > B-Greek mailing list
>> > B-Greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> > http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/b-greek
>>
>>
>>
>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
>> Search.
>
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
More information about the B-Greek
mailing list