[B-Greek] Fwd: Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
Albert Pietersma
albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca
Sun Mar 9 11:17:47 EDT 2008
Begin forwarded message:
> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
> Date: March 9, 2008 3:10:58 AM EDT (CA)
> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>, b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2008, at 8:19 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>
>> The point was not regarding whether APEXW was used in Rom 1.24 but
>> rather that the acc was used as the obj of the articular inf.
> Though it might be argued that in Greek the subject of an
> infinitive is in the accusative, it cannot be said that the object
> of an infinitive is in the accusative.
>> If you wish to stick to APEXW, then there are examples of that
>> as well. In 1 Thess 4.3 we do find APEXW as a simple inf without
>> an article with the preposition APO following as you suggest
>>
>> Τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν θέλημα τοῦ θεοῦ,
>> ὁ ἁγιασμὸς ὑμῶν, ἀπέχεσθαι ὑμᾶς
>> ἀπὸ τῆς πορνείας
>> TOUTO GAR ESTIN QELHMA TOU QEOU, hO hAGIASMOS hUMWN, APEXESQAI
>> hUMAS APO THS PORNEIAS
> Sorry, George, hUMAS is the subject of APEXESQAI, not its object.
> That was my precisely my point about your suggested ME in Ezek
> 8:6, i.e. ME would have to be subject of APEXESQAI, not its object.
>>
>>
>> In Acts 15.20, on the other hand, the articular inf of APEXW is
>> used with a simple genitive without a preposition
>>
>> ἀλλὰ ἐπιστεῖλαι αὐτοῖς τοῦ
>> ἀπέχεσθαι τῶν ἀλισγημάτων τῶν
>> εἰδώλων καὶ τῆς πορνείας καὶ τοῦ
>> πνικτοῦ καὶ τοῦ αἵματος.
>> ALLA EPISTEILAI AUTOIS TOU APEXESQAI TWN hALISGHMATW TWN EIDWLWN
>> KAI THS PORNEIAS KAI TOU PNIKTOU KAI TOU hAIMATOS.
> As in Ezek 8:6 the subject of the infinitive has the same referent
> as the subject of POIOUSIN and thus is not reissued with TOU
> APESESQAI, so here subject of the infinitive has the same referent
> as AUTOIS and thus is not reissued with TOU APESQAI.
> In both Acts 15.20 and Ezek 8:6, the form would have been
> accusative (AUTOUS) if it had been reissued for some reason.
>
>>
>>
>> In the LXX, however, I think we have a somewhat different
>> situation since it is translation Greek.
> Are you suggesting that we conclude to translationese, just because
> it fits the source text? And while the usage is without attestation
> in non-translation literature?
> Al (herewith signing off on this discussion)
>>
>
>> In Targum Jonathan to the Prophets this is rendered by an Ethpaal
>> which is a causative which is why I would suggest that in the
>> Hebrew it should be understood as a Piel since that is likewise a
>> causative. The Greek translation does appear to attempt to
>> reproduce the Hebrew rather mechanically, and the Aramaic of the
>> Targum would seem to indicate a causative which would be one
>> understanding to the significance of the use of the articular inf
>> in the LXX. Just as the Hebrew does not specifically mention YHWH
>> as the object (or the pronoun "me") so the Greek lacks it as
>> well. As with the examples cited from the NT, the object FROM
>> WHICH separation is contemplated is expressed by the use of the
>> preposition APO + the gen (though, as was shown, it could also
>> have been expressed by a simple genitive). Since the one who is
>> to be "sent away" is not mentioned, there is no use of either an
>> acc of object nor of APO + pronoun.
>>
>> george
>> gfsomsel
>>
>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>> defend the truth till death.
>>
>>
>> - Jan Hus
>> _________
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 6:05:46 PM
>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>>
>>
>> On Mar 8, 2008, at 4:32 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>
>>> While it is true that 11.15 and 22.5 use APEXW and do not have a
>>> causative sense, neither of them are in a genitive of the
>>> articular infinitive construction. The first sing pronoun as the
>>> object of the infinitive would be in the accusative. See Rom 1.24
>>>
>>> Διὸ παρέδωκεν αὐτοὺς ὁ θεὸς ἐν
>>> ταῖς ἐπιθυμίαις τῶν καρδιῶν
>>> αὐτῶν εἰς ἀκαθαρσίαν τοῦ
>>> ἀτιμάζεσθαι ** τὰ σώματα ** αὐτῶν
>>> ἐν αὐτοῖς·
>>> DIO PAREDWKEN AUTOIS hO QEOS EN TAIS EPIQUMIAIS TWN KARDIWN AUTWN
>>> EIS AKAQARSIAN TOU ATIMAZESQAI ** TA SWMATA ** AUTWN EN AUTOIS
>> But, George, I don't see APEXESQAI being used in Rom 1:24.
>> Moreover, are you suggesting that a given verb when used in a TOU
>> + Inf construction suddenly take a different object than it
>> otherwise does?
>>>
>>> Since the two instances of the verbs ποιοῦσιν [POIOUSIN]
>>> immediately preceding in the sentence are 3rd pl, I would expect
>>> that the subject of ἀπέχεσθαι [APEXESQAI] to likewise be
>>> 3rd pl making the understood ME the object.
>>
>> That presupposes, does it not, that APEXOMAI (a) means something
>> like "drive away" and that as such (b) it has its direct object in
>> the accusative. Neither would seem to be the case. APEXOMAI
>> commonly means "to keep oneself away," and when it is specified
>> what one keeps oneself away from, we find a genitive or an APO
>> phrase, as in fact we have in 8:6. Thus if 8:6 is to mean "they
>> keep themselves away FROM ME from my holy things" would we not
>> need . . . TOU APEXESQAI (APO) EMOU APO TWN hAGIWN MOY?
>> What am I missing?
>> Al
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> george
>>> gfsomsel
>>>
>>> … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> defend the truth till death.
>>>
>>>
>>> - Jan Hus
>>> _________
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----
>>> From: Albert Pietersma <albert.pietersma at sympatico.ca>
>>> To: George F Somsel <gfsomsel at yahoo.com>
>>> Cc: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>; b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 2:00:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [B-Greek] Ezek 8:6 [was Ezek 6:6]
>>>
>>> I wonder, George. While it is true that Iezek often renders the sg.
>>> of MQDS by a neuter plural, at times (e.g. 11.16; 45:4, 18; 48:8,
>>> 21)
>>> he uses a singular term. That would seem to suggest that when he
>>> uses the plural he has in mind a bit more than a given spot. In any
>>> case, the plural reference includes, I should think, the entire
>>> complex of structutes (precincts), including the paraphernalia.
>>> You are right, Iezek 8:6 is somewhat ambiguous on this score, given
>>> APEXOMAI. For its other uses in Iezek see 11:15 and 22:5, neither
>>> one
>>> of which, as one would expect, is causative. Therefore if ME is
>>> to be
>>> supplied in 8:6 it would have to be as subject, not object (which in
>>> any case would not be accusative). But to presuppose a switch in
>>> subject, from the main verb, would be rather odd, the more since no
>>> discrete pronoun is supplied in the subordinate clause.
>>> Ergo, I still think Noel did the right thing, and in fact was
>>> circumspect in using "holy things" rather than "holy place", as he
>>> sometimes does elsewhere.
>>> Al
>>>
>>> On Mar 8, 2008, at 12:22 PM, George F Somsel wrote:
>>>
>>> > You have caused a small amount of confusion by your subject
>>> heading
>>> > of "Ezek 6:6" when it is actually 8.6. I have adjusted it
>>> > accordingly.
>>> >
>>> > καὶ εἶπεν πρός με Υἱὲ ἀνθρώπου,
>>> > ἑώρακας τί οὗτοι ποιοῦσιν;
>>> ἀνομίας
>>> > μεγάλας ποιοῦσιν ὧδε τοῦ
>>> > ἀπέχεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἁγίων μου, καὶ
>>> > ἔτι ὄψει ἀνομίας μείζονας.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > KAI EIPEN PROS ME, "hUIE ANQRWPOU, hEWRAKAS TI hOUTOI POIOUSIN?
>>> > ANOMIAS MEGALAS POIOUSIN hWDE TOU APEXESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU,
>>> > OYEI ANOMIAS MEIZONAS."
>>> >
>>> > While the LXX must ultimately be understood on its own, it is
>>> > sometimes helpful to take a look at the Hebrew upon which it is
>>> > based. While the text here referenced is translated from the
>>> > Hebrew largely as "to drive me from", which would seem to be the
>>> > piel form. The verb here in its basic form (qal), which is
>>> > generally indicated, is simply "to be distant." In the piel form
>>> > it becomes "to send away." Since the verb is what is known in
>>> > Hebrew grammar as a II gutteral or `ayin gutteral, which means
>>> that
>>> > the second radical is a gutteral, it is conceivable that it could
>>> > be a piel form since the gutteral rejects the dagesh which is one
>>> > of the distinguishing marks of the piel.
>>> >
>>> > The Greek seems not to have a causative connotation. The genitive
>>> > of the articular infinitive which we see in τοῦ
>>> > ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] would indicate a final or
>>> > causative event. The μου [MOU] must most reasonably be
>>> construed
>>> > with τῶν ἁγίων [TWN hAGIWN], which is another problem
>>> with
>>> > the LXX of this verse since it is singular in Hebrew, but this
>>> > seems to not be uncommon in the LXX. I would think that it would
>>> > better have been translated as "my Holy Place" and to understand
>>> > τοῦ ἀπέχεσθαι [TOU APEXESQAI] in a causative sense
>>> > supplying με [ME] which is not specified in the Greek as the
>>> > object of the phrase. Thus understood, the LXX reading would
>>> yield
>>> > much the same as the traditional reading of the MT.
>>> >
>>> > george
>>> > gfsomsel
>>> >
>>> > … search for truth, hear truth,
>>> > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
>>> > defend the truth till death.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > - Jan Hus
>>> > _________
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message ----
>>> > From: Bucur <bogabu at yahoo.com>
>>> > To: b-greek at lists.ibiblio.org
>>> > Sent: Saturday, March 8, 2008 10:27:37 AM
>>> > Subject: [B-Greek] Ezek 6:6
>>> >
>>> > NETS translates the central passage in Ezek 8:6 as
>>> > "they are committing great acts of lawlessness here by
>>> > keeping themselves far from my holy things" (hWDE TOU
>>> > APECESQAI APO TWN hAGIWN MOU). Given the context --
>>> > God is about to leave the temple -- I think, this does
>>> > not make sense. Is there some pressing grammatical
>>> > reason for changing "so that I [that is, God] should
>>> > keep away ..." into what the NETS version offers?
>>> >
>>> > Bogdan Bucur
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ---
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>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> ____________________________________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
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